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[Scott_Burroughs]

Prodded by one of my playing partners, here are my pics
of "Gay" Dev. Emmet's Leatherstocking GC, opened in 1909.  
Mike Cirba, Craig Disher, and myself were all pleasantly
surprised with how good the course was (even with hearing
from Wayne very good things ahead of time), given it
doesn't get talked about all that much.  Of note, all 18
greens have multiple bunkers behind them, most of which are blind.

Approach to par 4 #1, nice left-to-right tilt of the green:


Tee shot on the tough (especially into a stiff headwind) par 4 #2 (note the car/road crossing the hole):



Well-uphill approach, likely used to be skyline, to a well-sloped green:


Long par 3 3rd with public road behind:


Reachable par 5 4th, with cross-bunkers:


Tee shot on par 4 6th:


Which happens to be very close to Otsego Lake and the Uber-Cape par 5 18th:


Tee shot on nasty-hard (esp. into stiff headwind) uphill par 4 7th:


Steeply uphill approach (Also likely used to be skyline and
crosses same road as before), with steep grass bunker guarding front right:


Landing in this bunker 50 yards short right is not advisable:


Nor is being in the grass bunker:




Tree-guarded tee shot on par 3 9th:


Double-penalty bunker short right:


Camera battery died...

Course web site, which features pics of the tee shot on the
par4 16th, the island tee of #18, and the drop-shot par 3
#12 (w/10 bunkers around the green):

http://www.otesaga.com/LGC/


Craig?  Your turn for pics!

[Mike_Cirba]

Scott,

Thanks!

Ok Craig...your turn!  


Folks...let's remember that this course opened in 1909, the same year as NGLA was coming into fruition.   Other than a brushing up by a Bob Cupp master plan over the past decade, it hasn't been touched.

I think that knowledge provides some good historical background when you look at the features of Leatherstocking and consider just how far advanced it was at that time.

[Joe Hancock]

Which happens to be very close to Otsego Lake and the Uber-Cape par 5 18th:

Fish on!!!!!


Sorry...you were saying?

Seriously, great pics and, Thank You!

Joe

[Kyle Harris]

Joe,

Having played many a round with Mike over the past few years, your one line may be the funniest thing I've read on GCA.com. I am still laughing out loud.

[Dan Herrmann]

We were going to play Leatherstocking on our way back to Philly from Rochester.  Unfortunately, it was raining like cats and dogs so we put it off for a bit.  

Thanks for the photos.  Makes me really want to get up there in the fall.

[Mike Sweeney]

It's official, Mike Cirba has lost his title to whitest legs on GCA!

[Mike_Cirba]

Hey Hey fellas...this thread is about OUTING Dev Emmett's Leatherstocking!

Your lame attempts at humor are very distracting to those of us trying to keep the GCA focus on architecture.  




 

[Brad Swanson]

Hey Hey fellas...this thread is about OUTING Dev Emmett's Leatherstocking!

Your lame attempts at humor are very distracting to those of us trying to keep the GCA focus on architecture.  




 

Mike,
   You are outing Dev Emmett at Leatherstocking GC?!  I knew my post on the switch hitter thread had some merit.

Cheers,
Brad

[paul cowley]

Discovering Leatherstocking while in my teens was the most influential experience that formed my desire to become a golf course designer.

I grew up one hour to the east on Muni courses, which were also extremely formative.....but I had nothing to contrast that experience with until I played Leatherstocking.

Its my favorite halcyon course.

[Brian Laurent]

Great pictures, Scott.  I've heard nothing but great things about the golf course.  Tough luck about the camera running out of juice...I look forward to seeing a few more pics.

[Mike_Cirba]

Discovering Leatherstocking while in my teens was the most influential experience that formed my desire to become a golf course designer.

I grew up one hour to the east on Muni courses, which were also extremely formative.....but I had nothing to contrast that experience with until I played Leatherstocking.

Its my favorite halcyon course.

Paul,

Please do tell more.  What were the things you saw at Leatherstocking that formed your interest in architecture?

[Evan Fleisher]

I know I've mentioned it here before...but Leatherstocking was the site of the first time I ever beat my father in a round of golf.  It was the summer of 1990 (I was 21) and we were on a two-man trek to scout grad schools I was to attend that Fall.

Not being an architectural "geek" back then I didn't really have the appreciation for it that I might have now...but knew even then that it was a pretty neat place, especially those last few holes.  I hope one day to get another crack at it...thanks for the pics and bringing back some very fond memories.  The course looks wonderful.

[Dan Boerger]

One of my favorite course in Central New York. Love those pictures.

[Craig Disher]

I completely agree with Scott and Mike's take on Leatherstocking. I also was impressed with how little the course has deteriorated over the years. The man-made features, bunkers and mounding, are crisp and well-defined as you can see from the earlier photos. The conditioning is the only thing that Dev wouldn't recognize. It was excellent.

Taking up where Scott's camera went to sleep...

The approach to the par 4 10th. The tiny green is so well hidden that you don't see it until you're almost on top of it. How could Emmett have thought this was a par 4 in 1909? It's as brutal as the 7th.



The off-camber fairway on the par 5 11th viewed from the tee.



Approaching the green which is in a hollow behind the last ridge. The picturesque bunkers on the left are severe but the correct approach is from the right.



The 11th green.



The 9th green viewed from the 12th tee.



As the sun drops behind the ridge on the right, the 12th green. It's almost invisible from the back tee so you have to hit your shot and run to the front tee to see the result.



The short par 4 13th. A massive, presumably natural, mound, sits in the middle of the fairway.



Looking from the 13th green back down the fairway at the mound.



The 13th green from the left. The grass bunker is about 15 feet deep and to the rear is a drop that goes on forever. It's just great topography for a short par 4.



The short par 4 14th - a deep swale cuts across the fairway; the green is narrow and very deep



Mike's blind approach from within 100 yards.



The par 5 15th. The fairway has a pronounced tilt similar to #11. A 2nd shot approach to a massive green is blind.



The green slopes away from the player and is surrounded by awkward ground.



The par 4 16th.



The par 3 17th. A straightforward carry over a marsh to a relatively flat green. After what went before, I found this hole less interesting. A more natural ending to the course would have been to go straight to the famous 18th tee and back to the hotel.  I wonder if Dev was happy with this hole.



The light was going fast so this was the best I could do on #18. The view from the tee to the green near the hotel. The tee box sits on a pile of rocks and old building debris in the middle of the lake. I'm sure there are those who would attempt the 300+ yard carry but the rest of us turn right and find a comfortable distance over the lake. An impressive hole now, it must have been astonishing in 1909.



My only complaint is that the hotel couldn't accommodate us for dinner immediately after the round.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

My only complaint is that the hotel couldn't accommodate us for dinner immediately after the round.  

Hey, the pizza at Brooklyn Sal's in town was pretty darn good.

And Craig did make that short birdie putt on #12.

It was fun trying different chips up the side of the hill on #11
to get the right spot to get it to roll down the hill (practically sideways) to the green.

[Mike_Cirba]

Well...I guess architectural comment on courses is passe here and soooo early 21st century.  

Perhaps I should jump on the "Rules and Ethics" thread at 420 posts or the "Snob" thread with 240?  

GCA jumped the shark?   Shoot...we're in summer re-run season!  

I'm thinking we should be labelling the architectural-related threads as OT.  

[john_foley]

Guys,

Thanks for the pics. Leathestocking is on top of the very short lists of places I need to get to in the fall (w/ a camera).

Did you get to see Otsego and is it worth it?

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

No, unfortunately there wasn't enough daylight left.   We played Teugega in the morning, grabbed a quick lunch, and then headed down to Cooperstown.

I had hoped to stop by Otsego because from aerials, it looks unchanged since it was built in 1894.  Maybe next time.

[Brad Swanson]

Mike,
   It appears as though they are adding trees when they should be removing them, your thoughts?

Cheers,
Brad

[Mike_Cirba]

Brad,

Like most courses, you could remove every single pine tree from Leatherstocking and improve it considerably.

In fact, I'd take every tree out but the specimens (and I'd chop of few of them too) and it would shine.  

I don't know if adding pines is part of the 10 year Master Plan put together by Bob Cupp, but so much of what they've been doing there seems right-on that I doubt it.

I'd also add that the fairways offer considerable width, and I only recall one time any of the three of us got into real tree problems.   Scott or Craig..do you recall any others?

[Joe Hancock]

Well...I guess architectural comment on courses is passe here and soooo early 21st century.  

Perhaps I should jump on the "Rules and Ethics" thread at 420 posts or the "Snob" thread with 240?  

GCA jumped the shark?   Shoot...we're in summer re-run season!  

I'm thinking we should be labelling the architectural-related threads as OT.  

Mike,

As you know, there is nothing more taboo on GCA than to attempt any kind of architectural discussion based on pictures alone. Without multiple play in varying conditions (also known as "heavy lifting") one isn't qualified to comment.....

Sorry for my one and only smart aleck comment on this thread, but I have neither seen nor played this course, although I'd like to.

Joe

p.s. From the pictures, it appears there is a lot of holes routed with sidehill demeanor.  

[john_foley]

Tuegega was very nice. Hope we get to see that write up

You guys should have made it to Yahnandasis in Utica, which is very very good. I'll write up some notes & post some pics for there

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

I have long contended that if we didn't "judge" courses by pictures, there wouldn't be a hell of a lot of discussion here.

I'm starting to think that if we take away OT threads, that prophecy would be correct.  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Brad,

Like most courses, you could remove every single pine tree from Leatherstocking and improve it considerably.

In fact, I'd take every tree out but the specimens (and I'd chop of few of them too) and it would shine.  

I don't know if adding pines is part of the 10 year Master Plan put together by Bob Cupp, but so much of what they've been doing there seems right-on that I doubt it.

I'd also add that the fairways offer considerable width, and I only recall one time any of the three of us got into real tree problems.   Scott or Craig..do you recall any others?

Mike,

Did you feel, at any time on the course, that the trees really came into play on any of the holes?  

What did you think of hole #6, with the creek up the right protected by trees?  What was your play there?  

Standing on #9 tee, the trees do encroach on the right, but it is a busy road...almost a necessary evil for safety.  

Did you think the trees came in too close on the left of #10?  

Otherwise, I can't think of any examples where I felt there were too many trees.  

What about you?  

[Brad Swanson]

Doug,
   Are the small trees on the left side of 5, 6, and 7 necessary.  They look like recent plantings that will over time really encroach (this from photographic analysis alone).

   On another note, the terrain looks outstanding as far as variety with sidehill/uphill/downhill variety, and the green sizes look varied (the photo of 9 green from #12 is very pleasing to my eye).

Cheers,
Brad

[Mike_Cirba]

Doug/Brad,

I agree with Doug that the trees don't come into play much, but I'd also take down the trees along the creek that Doug mentioned on #6, because I think seeing the creek the whole way would be a much more interesting visual hazard, even though they are larger specimen-type trees.

I also would take down every crappy pine because they frankly don't have any place on a golf course.  Why don't they just dig little 10 foot x 10 foot ponds all over the place because the net result is the same?!  

I'm not talking about majestic Georgia Pines, mind you, where the branches start about 15-20 feet off the ground.   I'm talking about little "Christmas trees", with sap, and picky needles, and other crap like pine cones that serve no purpose but to litter the course and obstruct play.



All,

I would add that even though Scott started this thread, I'm sure he would agree that this is a "feel free to comment on pictures" thread.  We all have eyes..feel free to use them!  

If anyone starts to comment that you can't judge a course from pictures, or other such nonsense, I'll personally hunt them down and hit them with my abbreviated followthrough!    

[Doug Braunsdorf]

If anyone starts to comment that you can't judge a course from pictures, or other such nonsense, I'll personally hunt them down and hit them with my abbreviated followthrough!    

Mike,

  Not to punch holes in your nice comments, but I think, from experience, you must experience the hills on holes 2,7,9,10 firsthand; they really are much greater than they appear.  

Yes/No?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

  Not to punch holes in your nice comments, but I think, from experience, you must experience the hills on holes 2,7,9,10 firsthand; they really are much greater than they appear.  

Yes/No?

Doug,

No question...like television, photographs tend to "flatten" things.

The hills on 2, 7, 9, and 10 are very significant, and the approach to 7 specifically is about a 3 club difference.

[Craig Disher]

Except for the overhanging trees to the right on #11, I didn't find them annoying until #13 and #14. Removing the line of trees behind the 15th green would give a spectacular view on the approach. But as Mike said, the fairways on most holes have plenty of space - although the pictures show a large number of small maples or oaks that have been planted recently. Not a good sign.

Doug,
2, 7, and 10 are very difficult holes, 10 especially.  We played 10 from the upper left tee and didn't walk down to the lower tee on the right. Have you played from there? It looks like it would be a blind drive up and over a nearly vertical cliff.

In the area between the 3rd and 4th tees (the holes play in opposite directions) I saw a small carved-out area to the left rear of the current 3rd tee. In front of the area was a deep depression directly in line with the 3rd green. I speculated that the carved-out area may have been the original 3rd tee with the hole playing as a very short par 4 with the option of playing either over the depression and having a very short approach to the green or playiing to the right of it along the line of the current hole. Has anyone noticed this or have any information about the original routing? Next time I'm at the Archives, I'll see if there's a 30s era aerial - although the feature may have been gone by then. If the tee was there, it was definitely in a risky spot, just to the left of the 2nd fairway.

Sal's was good and I wasn't hungry until around noon the next day.

[paul cowley]

Discovering Leatherstocking while in my teens was the most influential experience that formed my desire to become a golf course designer.

I grew up one hour to the east on Muni courses, which were also extremely formative.....but I had nothing to contrast that experience with until I played Leatherstocking.

Its my favorite halcyon course.

Paul,

Please do tell more.  What were the things you saw at Leatherstocking that formed your interest in architecture?

Mike....my entry into golf was a little odd. From the age of 12 thru my teens I worked after school, weekends and summers in plant nurseries or landscape construction. When it was too rainy to work an older employee introduced me to golfing in the rain and I began to look forward to these rain day sessions. The course was a short collection of 27 holes built by a local farmer [Western Turnpike CC]....bare bones and many of the par fours were just under 300 yds. Actually the course was a good place to learn if you had no preconceptions of what constitutes good design.....and I had none. On occasion my father would take me out to a NLE nine hole course in Sharon Springs [but only when it wasn't raining]. The course was probably layed out by a person of some ability, and it was exciting for me to start analyzing elements of the design....basically what I liked and how it got the way it did.

When I was about 15 my father took me to Cooperstown to play golf. I had previously only visited the two museums in town.

After going through the locker room, and standing on the first tee, I knew I was about to experience something very different.

And I did.....by the time I encountered my first cross bunkers at #5, my mind was swimming.....then going across the road....and then the finishing holes.....I was mesmerized, and in love with the place and setting.

I still go back whenever I can.....I have even earned enough to stay at the Hotel on occasion, and I no longer have to play in the rain [which I miss when I think back about it, but Thomas Wolf has a phrase that addresses that].

Its quite possibly the course I would pick if I had to choose only one to play for the rest of my life [excluding 2 or 3 of my own].

Thanks for posting the photos Gents.


 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Except for the overhanging trees to the right on #11, I didn't find them annoying until #13 and #14. Removing the line of trees behind the 15th green would give a spectacular view on the approach. But as Mike said, the fairways on most holes have plenty of space - although the pictures show a large number of small maples or oaks that have been planted recently. Not a good sign.

Doug,
2, 7, and 10 are very difficult holes, 10 especially.  We played 10 from the upper left tee and didn't walk down to the lower tee on the right. Have you played from there? It looks like it would be a blind drive up and over a nearly vertical cliff.

In the area between the 3rd and 4th tees (the holes play in opposite directions) I saw a small carved-out area to the left rear of the current 3rd tee. In front of the area was a deep depression directly in line with the 3rd green. I speculated that the carved-out area may have been the original 3rd tee with the hole playing as a very short par 4 with the option of playing either over the depression and having a very short approach to the green or playiing to the right of it along the line of the current hole. Has anyone noticed this or have any information about the original routing? Next time I'm at the Archives, I'll see if there's a 30s era aerial - although the feature may have been gone by then. If the tee was there, it was definitely in a risky spot, just to the left of the 2nd fairway.

Sal's was good and I wasn't hungry until around noon the next day.

Craig-

  I played from the left tee on 10--the upper one--and blocked it down the hill.  Fortunately, the wet rough caught it from going OB.  Pitched up and on, made five.  Wayne hit a drive from the bottom tee, he may have played the hole from here, can't remember exactly.  Getting old

You know, do you remember the waste area to the left of 4 tee?  Did you notice that indentation in the mounds?  We looked at it, but, for the life of me, I couldn't figure out why it was there.  It seemed very insignificant as a feature--because, if you went right through it, as I remember,  you would end up down on 2 fairway somewhere.  Is this what you're referring to?  

[Craig Disher]

Doug,
I'm not sure. I remember walking from the 3rd green to the 4th tee and seeing some very rough ground on the left - which I described as the depression in front of the possible original 3rd tee.

Here's a 1928 photo from the 3rd tee. The topography from there is quite different than from the current tee and does resemble what I remember from looking at the carved-out area to the left rear of the 2nd green. An early scorecard would be helpful.

It appears that the 3rd green would be over the hill behind the tree on the left.

[wsmorrison]

Sean,

It is a resort course associated with the Hotel Otesaga, a very nice grand hotel along the lake.  It is a hotel and course well worth visiting, even if you're not interested in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.  However, anyone that loves baseball should visit Cooperstown and there's lots to do if you don't.

[paul cowley]

Sean....Google Otesaga Hotel.

Cooperstown is a gem of its own. The town sits on one of the Finger Lakes in that region of Central NY....the Baseball Hall of Fame is there as well.

The nearby Farmers Museum is very good too....and its right across the street from the Leatherstocking Course [you can see part of it in the background of the photo of #12....an old historic stone barn].

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean,

If you don't like Leatherstocking I'd be shocked.

I think it's time to reiterate the fact that this course was built in 1909, the same year NGLA was coming into reality.

Wasn't American architecture supposed to be a geometric, artificial wasteland at that time?   Isn't the commonly accepted notion that Macdonald pulled us collectively from that morass with his example in Southampton.

I find it ironic that Emmett built the original Garden City (basically today's routing) 10 years earlier.    I find it even more ironic that Emmett visited the great courses overseas annually from the 1880s, and was the one who sketched all the great holes there for Macdonald prior to NGLA.

It makes me wonder how renowned Leatherstocking would be if it were built on Long Island, or Boston, or Philly, instead of on some lake in the middle of nowhere (prior to baseball notoriety) upstate New York.

Are we sure that Emmett didn't design Merion??