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[paul cowley]

Sean....its not as fearsome as it looks.

it is short, maybe 125 to 140 yds for most players, and its a drop shot of maybe 25 or 30', straight over a rock ledge.

Its enough of a drop to affect your club selection.

If I were to rate it against similar holes, with PB #17 being a 10....its maybe a 7.

I would love to take out about two thirds of the trees on the course, which is a compact layout whose feeling of closeness has become even more so as these trees have matured.....not to mention that the wonderful views of the lake are compromised.

My guess is that with a proper thinning, a view to the waters could occur on all the holes....which I would also guess was possible in 1909.

My free consultation [expenses only] appointment calender is wide open.

[paul cowley]

You are right Sean...the bunkering is a bit redundant.

If research indicated they were not there originally, or that their configuration had been tampered with over the years, then I would be happy to include their restoration in my free consultation contract.

[JMorgan]

Original #9.  

Mike, as Bob pointed out above, Huntington was constructed around the same time as Cooperstown.  (And Dev designed other courses before Garden City. Maybe that new Dev book being published soon will tell us more.)  If the course was transplanted to L.I., it wouldn't be the same course.  

Sean, what other holes does #12 resemble in your mind?...  From some of the guys I've seen playing that hole, the worst bunker is the parking lot at the farm museum behind the green.
 

[Mike_Cirba]

James,

Great pic of the 9th!

You can kind of see the need for the trees down the right today, given that it's a tourist town with wall-to-wall traffic in the summer.

I sent along some email...please disregard my IM.   It includes a vintage pic of the 12th which you probably already have but just in case.  

[paul cowley]

James ....great photo of the ninth....do you have more....please?

Mike, I agree ....if a tree reduction program was initiated, the trees along all the road edges should be given special consideration toward sparing their lives.

Their silent pleas should be heard.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, Paul...that old pic of the 9th looks like a liability lawyer's wet dream.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Push for Jay Flemma...

[John Sheehan]

Mike,
Thank you - what a wonderful looking course.
John

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,
Thank you - what a wonderful looking course.
John

John,

I was absolutely enchanted by Leatherstocking.   What a splendid place in every respect!

[John Sheehan]

Mike,
Thank you - what a wonderful looking course.
John

John,

I was absolutely enchanted by Leatherstocking.   What a splendid place in every respect!

Mike,
I just looked through both posts again - just amazing movement to the land and no way to tell what is natural and what is not.  Wow.  I must play it.  Thanks again for resurrecting this thread.  Was that island tee on 18 part of his original design in 1909?

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

That's a good question.

When I played LS last summer I assumed the attribution of 1909 was for all 18 holes.

Since then, while looking for something else, I came across a story by Dev Emmett where he talked about the "new course" at Otesaga, which must have been when he expanded the original to eighteen.

I don't know, but I suspect that island tee on 18 might have been from that iteration.

[Sean Arble]

This is a most impressive looking course.  I gotta find a way to get there some day.  Thanks for the enlightenment!

Ciao

[chipoat]

Mike Cirba beat me to it - too many trees!

And some of them come into play from the tee box (e.g. #9) - very bad!!!!!

[Andy Hughes]

I find it ironic that Emmett built the original Garden City (basically today's routing) 10 years earlier.    I find it even more ironic that Emmett visited the great courses overseas annually from the 1880s, and was the one who sketched all the great holes there for Macdonald prior to NGLA.

Are we sure that Emmett didn't design Merion?? 

Aha!! And you mocked me when I suggested they had been foolish to hire a know-nothing greenhorn like Wilson rather than go with the proven talents of Travis or Colt. And now you throw Emmet into the mix to bolster my point. Merion might have ended up with a good course if only they had heeded my advice. 

[Anthony Pioppi]

Here are a series of photos looking left from the third tee, gradually towards the green. I believe the original hole design would have called for a tee shot over this entirely created gouge where the soil appears to have been used to create the slope leading to the green and possibly part of the fourth tee.

Anthony

[Chris_Blakely]

Here are a series of photos looking left from the third tee, gradually towards the green. I believe the original hole design would have called for a tee shot over this entirely created gouge where the soil appears to have been used to create the slope leading to the green and possibly part of the fourth tee.

Anthony

The original tee for the third hole (long par 3) did call for a shot over that gorge - you can see a painting in the clubhouse with the original routing and a tee requiring a shot over the gorge.

Chris

[Anthony Pioppi]

Anybody have any idea which were the original 9 holes? I'm guessing the building used for the Cooperstown Country Club is the original clubhouse and that 9-12 were part of the original 9.

Anthony

[Craig Disher]

Anthony,
Thanks for those pictures. It's unfortunate that someone exchanged an exceptional short par 4 - which obviously required a great deal of construction at the time - for a rather ordinary par 5 - which could have continued to play as a strong par 4. Or maybe the scorecard just looked too unbalanced.

[Jay Flemma]

Craig, I'm not sure you have that right.  The fourth hole is an excellent par-5 - highly reminiscent of 4 at garden city.  4 is one of the best holes and 3 is a par-3...

Emmet built his first nine there in 1909, then built the second nine in 1919.  Look for an article on the course from me soon.

[Jay Flemma]

Oh...and craig and Mike, here's some pix:

craig, I'll refer you to the pic of 4 on page 1...much better than the one I can't seem to upload yto photobucket...

here's 12 - a true "Short"



and here's the false front on 5:

[Craig Disher]

Jay,
Anthony suggested to me that the 4th tee was moved back which may have made the old 3rd tee unsafe - and thus its move to behind the 2nd green. I like 4 but if what Anthony says is true, I would like it just as much as a shorter par 5 or 4.5 if the original 3 could have been retained. That was an exceptional short par 4.

[Jay Flemma]

I was told they may have moved the bunkers...I have seen the old print he's referring to, but will have to see it again to remember.  Four is not all that long as it stands right now...I think the longer guys can reach it in two, but its a three-shotter for mere mortals like us.

[Anthony Pioppi]

"In the making of the O-te-sa-ga Links neither money nor pains has been spared. As at Pine Valley, a great many persons, including the writer, have given their best idea and cooperation toward what is a really a very fine result."

Devereux Emmet, Golf Illustrated, August, 1921


There were, however, substantial changes made after this article was written. Here the 17, now a par-3, is listed as a par-5, and the eighteenth, now a par-5, is listed as a par-3. I believe the painting in the pro shop, which dates from about 1930, shows the course in its current configuration.

Anthony

[Jay Flemma]

That's correct about 17...that par-3 that plays over blackbird inlet is a fairly recent change.  The 16th used to have much more water and they reclaimed some land to make it the way it is now.

I don't think 16 and 17 really fit with the rest of the golf course, but I give them a pass because the rest of he course has terrific architecture, price is nice and so is the natural setting.  It's quite restorative, Glimmerglass.

[Mike_Cirba]

I find it ironic that Emmett built the original Garden City (basically today's routing) 10 years earlier.    I find it even more ironic that Emmett visited the great courses overseas annually from the 1880s, and was the one who sketched all the great holes there for Macdonald prior to NGLA.

Are we sure that Emmett didn't design Merion?? 

Aha!! And you mocked me when I suggested they had been foolish to hire a know-nothing greenhorn like Wilson rather than go with the proven talents of Travis or Colt. And now you throw Emmet into the mix to bolster my point. Merion might have ended up with a good course if only they had heeded my advice. 

Andy,

I made that comment last year when I was under the mistaken impression that Emmett laid out something much like today's course in 1909.

As Tony mentions later in the thread, most of the course as it exists today was done in the early 20s.  It was originally a nine-holer, but I don't know which holes they were or whether the entire thing was revamped in the 20s. 

So, although Emmett was one of the Long Island guys, and did lots of work at NGLA (including bringing back the original sketches), and the original routing at Garden City (which was strengthened heavily by Travis in the 1906-1911 timeframe), he would not necessarily be known to the Merion committee in 1910 as anything other than a fine player and amateur sportsman, just like Macdonald.

And Andy...if you think I mocked you, I apologize.   You're one of my favorite people here and I would never do that intentionally.

[Jay Flemma]

Here's what the club told me today while finishing up my article.  Emmat built 1-7 and 16, 18 in 1909, the rest of the course in 1919.

They're getting right back to me on the issue of when 17 was built.

[Sean Arble]

Ronald's recent posting of a link to Leatherstocking pix prompted me to go back and have a look at this tour.  I always find myself blown over by how good this course looks.  If only I could convince my wife that up state NY is a good holiday destination.  Regardless, Leatherstocking remains one of the very few courses I really want to see before I fall off the twig.

Ciao

[Dan Boerger]

Sean - Consider a rental in the Old Forge/Inlet area in the Western Adriondacks. A really beautiful place and no more than a couple hours from Cooperstown, which is a quaint town and great for a day visit (even if you are not a baseball fan). Also, if you do go, I suggest you consider playing the Yahnundasis, another gem (located just outside Utica, NY). I'm from that area, so I'm partial to be sure.

[Bart Bradley]

Ronald's recent posting of a link to Leatherstocking pix prompted me to go back and have a look at this tour.  I always find myself blown over by how good this course looks.  If only I could convince my wife that up state NY is a good holiday destination.  Regardless, Leatherstocking remains one of the very few courses I really want to see before I fall off the twig.

Ciao

Sean:

My wife loved our 2 nights in Cooperstown...It is a beautiful spot and a very quaint town...there are some absolutely gorgeous B and B's there and the old hotel looks pretty neat as well.  The golf is very fun ...solid Doak 7 in my opinion.  Your wife would love the area/..we spent a day at the horse races in Saratoga (another very quaint town not too far away) before heading out to Cooperstown...get cracking man.


Bart

[Jay Flemma]

Ronald's recent posting of a link to Leatherstocking pix prompted me to go back and have a look at this tour.  I always find myself blown over by how good this course looks.  If only I could convince my wife that up state NY is a good holiday destination.  Regardless, Leatherstocking remains one of the very few courses I really want to see before I fall off the twig.

Ciao

Baseball Hall of Fame is there and great antique shopping as well.  There's also terrific hiking in the A'dacks.