[Glenn Spencer]

I tried to find a link at the Golf Digest site, but there was nothing that came up.  So if someone can find it, please post it.  As of now the highest I can find is #74 per the Crooked Stick website.

Glenn,

The number of courses in the current Golf Digest list of top 100 that are younger than Crooked Stick is 51.  And that doesn't count all of the older courses that have moved into the top 100 for whatever reasons.

It can't be 74. I will look this afternoon myself. I would be shocked if it is not below 50 in the early 80's or so. Should be interesting.

[John Kavanaugh]

Could not find the link I was looking for under their new format.  How did I miss this earlier and where is redanman?  Top 250 Golfing Doctors:

http://www.golfdigest.com/rankings/2007/doctorrankings_gd2007

[Andy Troeger]

I believe it was 51 even just a few lists ago, but I'm not positive.

I haven't played it in 10 years, at the time it was the 1st or 2nd best course I'd played (with Point O'Woods the other...which fell off the list too). I very much think the Point should still be a top 100 course, not as confident about Crooked Stick, would have to play it to really give it a fair shake again.

Wolf Run to me should be in the top 100 easily.

[Glenn Spencer]

Andy,

Point O' Woods felt like a Top 100 course to me. I love the atmosphere out there. Wolf did not yell out to me as such, but then again it could be. Crooked Stick would be the least of my worries among the three. Again, why they make chocolate and vanilla.

[Andy Troeger]

Glenn,
Very true. I think if I looked at all the various lists I've played about 12-15 of the top 100 on each (taking the top 50 from each GW list). However, I've played at least 20 and I think closer to 25 that make one of the three lists. Keeps it interesting.

[Rick Shefchik]

And I loved those JELLO ads that Crosby did...

The one set at Cypress Point was the best. You know, the one where Bob and Bing ate the bowl of pudding on the 16th tee.

See, now I'm confused. I thought "Stills, Nash and Young" were the names of the other Crosby kids.

[Glenn Spencer]

Andy,

I know what you are saying about the different lists. One that bothers me is Moraine. I don't know if it was ever on the Top 100 or not. It appears in the GW Classical lists yearly. I would have thought in the 70's or 80's that it would be pushing the envelope. I just played out there recently and was again really impressed. They have this par 5 that I not enamored with, but outside of that it is really good. They need to make 17 a par 4 and soon, but I don't think it is going to happen.

Wolf Run loses me as a top 100 for the most part from holes 9-12, I just thought it was too long a stretch without  a real good hole. That brings up another question how long a stretch without somethin good is too long?? I know you like 9 though.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I believe it was 51 even just a few lists ago, but I'm not positive.

It was #72 in 2001/2
It was #54 in 2003/4
It was #74 in 2005/6

[George Pazin]

Glenn -

I don't think the USGA would allow such a tight grouping of USGA events.

Having said that, Pebble hosted the US Am and US Open in back to back years, with a PGA pro-am in between.

That, and the Oakmont and Merion stuff, are as strong as any combination of womens' and senior events Crooked Stick might throw together, imho.

[Dan Kelly]

Better yet, try poking fun at an urban black kid with a speech impediment today...good luck.  

You could probably get away with it at one of those Cosby Clambakes.

[Andy Troeger]

I believe it was 51 even just a few lists ago, but I'm not positive.

It was #72 in 2001/2
It was #54 in 2003/4
It was #74 in 2005/6

Kyle,
Thanks, 54 was the year I was thinking of.

Glenn,
I do like #9, and I'm undecided on #8. The drive might be a bit too dang hard, but I love the rest of the hole. #10 is just ok and my least favorite on the course, but #11 is a nice breather by Wolf standards. Starting with #12 I think things get very good.

[KBanks]

I wonder if any of the Crooked Stick hands can verify a story I recall about the construction of the course. The story had it that the site was largely a dead flat Indiana cornfield, at the level of the bottom of the huge pit to the right of # 12. (Jack Nicklaus' favorite hole; he said it reminded him of Scotland).

I always wondered if the story was true, or apocryphal. If true, it seems to me that it puts a different cast on Pete Dye's achievement there.

Ken

[Glenn Spencer]

I wonder if any of the Crooked Stick hands can verify a story I recall about the construction of the course. The story had it that the site was largely a dead flat Indiana cornfield, at the level of the bottom of the huge pit to the right of # 12. (Jack Nicklaus' favorite hole; he said it reminded him of Scotland).

I always wondered if the story was true, or apocryphal. If true, it seems to me that it puts a different cast on Pete Dye's achievement there.

Ken

They interviewed him at The Women's Amateur a couple of weeks ago. I am paraphrasing pretty closely, but it went something like this. " I couldn't get anyone to hire me, so I hired myself and we got a group out here to this flat Indiana cornfield and it became Crooked Stick."

George Pazin,

I don't know what the reference to the USGA not having that many events close together is about. Pebble is a strong case, but I have to say that it is a little different than what I was asking because I would hardly consider Pebble being "chosen" to host the Clambake the way CS was chosen to host the three tournaments.

[Glenn Spencer]

I believe it was 51 even just a few lists ago, but I'm not positive.

It was #72 in 2001/2
It was #54 in 2003/4
It was #74 in 2005/6

Kyle,
Thanks, 54 was the year I was thinking of.

Glenn,
I do like #9, and I'm undecided on #8. The drive might be a bit too dang hard, but I love the rest of the hole. #10 is just ok and my least favorite on the course, but #11 is a nice breather by Wolf standards. Starting with #12 I think things get very good.

40 or more spots is a long way to fall in 4 years, is it not?? Be interesting to see if that was a record or not.

Your qualms on 8 are the same as mine on 9.

The Nicklaus and 12 comment is interesting. I love CS as you all can tell, but 12 is by far my least favorite hole on the back and probably the entire course.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn -

I don't think the USGA would allow such a tight grouping of USGA events.

Having said that, Pebble hosted the US Am and US Open in back to back years, with a PGA pro-am in between.

That, and the Oakmont and Merion stuff, are as strong as any combination of womens' and senior events Crooked Stick might throw together, imho.

Yes, Merion, Oakmont, Pebble and Pumpkin Ridge all have better "tight knit resumes" but the fact that CS is having Women's Amateurs, PGA professionals and Seniors has to say a hell of a lot about the course, no?? That is pretty damn diverse.

[Andy Troeger]

Glenn,
I may just need to play it again, I love The Golf Club, which while different in some ways, is still old-style Pete Dye and has a lot of similar themes. TGC definitely has a better setting then Crooked Stick with more terrain and no homes, but Crooked Stick is pretty solid.

I'm sure the 46 spots is not a record for a four-year change. The GD list changes quite a bit sometimes from list to list. Its a significant drop to be sure (and I didn't rate it having not been there in the last ten years).

Certainly nothing says it cannot return to the list next time around either, it is not unprecedented for courses to fall off then come back a couple years later.

Edit: Oh, and Crooked Stick is admittedly MUCH better than your favorite course in Nashport, OH. What's that one called again? I still like that course, but just had to get that in there

[JR Potts]

I can't imagine that the members of Crooked Stick are very happy with the interruptions.

For comparison purposes, let me list this:

1988 - Senior Open
1990 - US Open
1999 - PGA Championship
2006 - PGA Championship
2012 - Ryder Cup
2018 -

Once you figure out the course, bash away.

[Joe Hancock]

Once you figure out the course, bash away.

Not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if they have fools running the tournament committee.....

Joe

[JR Potts]

Once you figure out the course, bash away.

Not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if they have fools running the tournament committee.....

Joe

Me neither.

[Ken Fry]

Why bash Medinah?

Crooked Stick and Medinah are quite different courses to compare.

Impressive is a newer course that has or will host a PGA Championship, U.S. Sr. Open and a Ryder Cup.  Not bad for a course that opened in 1998.

Ken

[Patrick_Mucci]

2007 US Women's Amateur
2009 US Senior Open
2010 Western Open (BMW Championship)

Has there ever been a golf course that has hosted three such diverse championships in such a short period of time. Does this lend any credibility to CS as a golf course?? The course has been taking a beating in the rankings lately, do these selections counter that at all?? It is not as if there is some tremendous infrastructure out there? Why is this course being honored so much, if it isn't a great one?

Glenn,

I'm not sure that I'd make the connection that hosting tournaments is an indication of outstanding architectural merit.

Some reference Valhalla as exhibit A in that regard.

But, I do like Crooked Stick

I'd imagine that Pete Dye put more time and effort into that golf course OVER the years than he has with any of his other golf courses.  Perhaps, like Ross laboring for 26 years at Pinehurst, Pete's tinkering and fine tuning has resulted in an enhanced golf course.

A tribute to the course's architecture MAY be it's ability to provide a challenge to such diverse competitions AND the membership on a daily basis.

[Glenn Spencer]

2007 US Women's Amateur
2009 US Senior Open
2010 Western Open (BMW Championship)

Has there ever been a golf course that has hosted three such diverse championships in such a short period of time. Does this lend any credibility to CS as a golf course?? The course has been taking a beating in the rankings lately, do these selections counter that at all?? It is not as if there is some tremendous infrastructure out there? Why is this course being honored so much, if it isn't a great one?

Glenn,

I'm not sure that I'd make the connection that hosting tournaments is an indication of outstanding architectural merit.

Some reference Valhalla as exhibit A in that regard.

But, I do like Crooked Stick

I'd imagine that Pete Dye put more time and effort into that golf course OVER the years than he has with any of his other golf courses.  Perhaps, like Ross laboring for 26 years at Pinehurst, Pete's tinkering and fine tuning has resulted in an enhanced golf course.

A tribute to the course's architecture MAY be it's ability to provide a challenge to such diverse competitions AND the membership on a daily basis.

Patrick,

Your last sentence is exactly what I have been driving at, I may not have put as succintly as you, but that was my point. Hosting those three tournaments in a short period of time, puts CS in a special class.

[George Pazin]

Glenn -

I don't think the USGA would allow such a tight grouping of USGA events.

Having said that, Pebble hosted the US Am and US Open in back to back years, with a PGA pro-am in between.

That, and the Oakmont and Merion stuff, are as strong as any combination of womens' and senior events Crooked Stick might throw together, imho.

Yes, Merion, Oakmont, Pebble and Pumpkin Ridge all have better "tight knit resumes" but the fact that CS is having Women's Amateurs, PGA professionals and Seniors has to say a hell of a lot about the course, no?? That is pretty damn diverse.

An excellent point, one that I overlooked.

The flip side is that I'm certain Merion/Oakmont could make excellent venues for the other events, but I think they share enough! I'd prefer to see the other events choose venues that might not be as well suited for the Am or Open, such as the women using Newport last year.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn -

I don't think the USGA would allow such a tight grouping of USGA events.

Having said that, Pebble hosted the US Am and US Open in back to back years, with a PGA pro-am in between.

That, and the Oakmont and Merion stuff, are as strong as any combination of womens' and senior events Crooked Stick might throw together, imho.

Yes, Merion, Oakmont, Pebble and Pumpkin Ridge all have better "tight knit resumes" but the fact that CS is having Women's Amateurs, PGA professionals and Seniors has to say a hell of a lot about the course, no?? That is pretty damn diverse.

An excellent point, one that I overlooked.

The flip side is that I'm certain Merion/Oakmont could make excellent venues for the other events, but I think they share enough! I'd prefer to see the other events choose venues that might not be as well suited for the Am or Open, such as the women using Newport last year.

I second that. Catch 22 though. I like seeing the AMs play the big-time classics of our country, but at the same time, I would like to see some of the greats that technology has left behind. The problem? I think the players are too good, that and the equipment.

[Doug Ralston]

Glenn,

If given the choice today I would drive the 3 hours it would take to play Crooked Stick over the 1 hour it would take for me to drive to Victoria.  Crooked Stick is truly a great course in every catagorie that matters to me.  I do believe that it is being thrown these leftover USGA events as a tribute to the career of Pete Dye.  It sickens me that the USGA refuses to give this great man and architect the US Open during his lifetime.  

Pete Dye does have a course that is apparently now a regular host of what, to me, is one of the most exciting and important events in golf, PGA Q-School. And PGA West is a fearsome monster of a challenge to torture poor hopefuls with for 6 rounds!

FYI: I have heard that the 'Pete Dye Course' in West Virginia, which did get a Nationwide event, is now accepting limits Public play! I do not know the requirements. I am certain most of you could wrangle a tee time anyway .... but I can't. So I must find out.

Doug

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