Crooked Stick- Can anyone beat it??

[Glenn Spencer]

2007 US Women's Amateur
2009 US Senior Open
2010 Western Open (BMW Championship)

Has there ever been a golf course that has hosted three such diverse championships in such a short period of time. Does this lend any credibility to CS as a golf course?? The course has been taking a beating in the rankings lately, do these selections counter that at all?? It is not as if there is some tremendous infrastructure out there? Why is this course being honored so much, if it isn't a great one?

[John Kavanaugh]

I have never understood the technicalities of the English language so could someone help me with the passive and active tenses of the word die.  For example how do you structure the following examples:

Pete Dye should have a course host a US Open before he is dead.

Before he dies, Pete Dye should see a course he has built host a US Open.

If I was Pete Dye I would want to see one of my courses host a US Open before I die.

I would die to see a Pete Dye course host a US Open before he dies.

[wsmorrison]

Merion East

2005 US Amateur
2009 Walker Cup
2013 US Open

Granted, these are over a period of 8 years, not the three that you cite for Crooked Stick.  The club has held a USGA championship in each of these decades 1900s, 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and soon to be 2010s.  Twelve straight decades is pretty impressive.  I don't think any other club comes close to that record.

[Chris_Clouser]

Glenn,

I just heard the club president speaking last week on a local show and they are in line for the 2011 BMW, but that is not a guarantee due to the lack of corporate sponsorship locally at this time.  As for why they are getting these, they have been schmoozing with the USGA since they hosted the PGA and they are just now getting these tournaments.  If you aren't on their "list" of preferred clubs it takes a long time to get in the "rotation".  This is typical for any club to take on the lower level championships and work their way up to a bigger tournament like the U S Open.  Just look at the history of Southern Hills and the USGA as a prime example of this.  If not for the recommendation of Ben Hogan all those years ago, SH might be a little known gem in Tulsa to most of America.

As for the ranking, this is a common problem for any golf course in Indiana.  It is not as if the raters go out of their way to play someplace in the middle of Indiana, it is a reputation the state needs to overcome quickly for many reasons.  Couple that with the other courses that have been built in the last ten years that have received noteriety and are the destination du jour (ie Bandon), there have to be some that fall out of the rankings.  Crooked Stick happens to be one of the casualties.  

Perhaps it has something with all of the tinkering that Pete Dye has done over the years to the course.  I know I personally think the course was better in the late 80s or early 90s than it was the last time I saw it.  Maybe it is a better host for tournaments, but the golf course has decreased in quality over time.  

Besides, I've seen most of the top privates in Indiana except for Victornia National and South Bend (several in the last 6 months) and I would be hesitant to rate any of them a top 100.  I've seen better courses that aren't on the list.  That comment includes Crooked Stick, Wolf Run or Sycamore Hills.

But don't ask me how Sycamore Hills got back in the top 100 this year.  I'll never figure that one out.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I honestly believe that Crooked Stick was hurt by John Daly winning their one major while sporting a mullet.  It created a red neck image in what is perceived as a red neck area.  No matter how much money the boys in Carmel may have they are still just a bunch of Hoosiers.  Yes, their is a Carmel, Indiana...It embarrasses me to even say it as it is hard to pronounce correctly.  Nothing funnier then to say Carmel like the candy and have a snooty Hoosier correct you in their best California uppity twang.

[John Nixon]

So long as the likes of Hazeltine, Sahalee, and Torrey Pines are on the books as having hosted a championship, I'd be hesitant to cite hosting a tournament as a criterion for a course's excellence.  

[Chris_Clouser]

John,

That is an interesting point.  I wonder how the image of Crooked Stick would be changed if it was the home of the only PGA Championship of Tom Watson's career.  

Regardless, I still think it is just a function of the increase in the number of top quality golf courses.  You can't have a bunch of people screaming because Bandon Trails should be in and then complaining because some other course they like falls out.  Crooked Stick is an easy fall guy.  Nobody really cares about it.  Can you imagine the screams if someplace like Riviera ever fell out of the top 100?  They would revamp the entire system...

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

That is an interesting point.  I wonder how the image of Crooked Stick would be changed if it was the home of the only PGA Championship of Tom Watson's career.  

It would be huge. They would name buildings or at least dining rooms after Watson.  

[George Pazin]

Merion East

2005 US Amateur
2009 Walker Cup
2013 US Open

Granted, these are over a period of 8 years, not the three that you cite for Crooked Stick.  The club has held a USGA championship in each of these decades 1900s, 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and soon to be 2010s.  Twelve straight decades is pretty impressive.  I don't think any other club comes close to that record.

I don't know about the 12 straight decades, but recently for Oakmont:

2003 US Am
2007 US Open
2010 US Women's Open

I am relatively certain Oakmont leads the pack in US Opens, has hosted I think 3 PGAs in addition, as well as the Am, etc.

I'll start working on a Walker Cup bid shortly.

 

P.S. I'd say Pennsylvanians are just lucky, but it's hard to imagine any courses more deserving than Merion and Oakmont.

[Garland Bayley]

Glenn,

You forgot the 2005 Solheim Cup at Crooked Stick.

More diversity.

[wsmorrison]

George,

I forgot about the Women's Open in 2010.  That should be a supreme test for the lady golfers.  The short game and putting demands of OCC will be daunting.

Oakmont as a match play course would be something.  Start the campaign!

As for one state (or Commonwealth) having two such illustrious and different courses, Pennsylvania is blessed with these two bookend greats.  

Here are Oakmont's USGA events over 10 decades (7 decades in a row):

US Open Championships
Men's
1927 - Tommy Armour
1935 - Sam Parks
1953 - Ben Hogan
1962 - Jack Nicklaus
1973 - Johnny Miller
1983 - Larry Nelson
1994 - Ernie Els
2007 - Angel Cabrera

Women's
1992 - Patty Sheehan
2010 -

US Amateur Champions
1919 - S. Davidson Heron
1925 - Bobby Jones
1938 - Willie Turnesa
1969 - Steve Melnyk
2003 -  Nick Flanagan
 
PGA Championships
1922 - Gene Sarazen
1951 - Sam Snead
1978 - John Mahaffey

[John Kavanaugh]

Wayne,

Don't forget the history of Baltusrol.  I think who wins a championship has as much to do with if one was held.  A perfect example is Hogan defeating Turnesa at the 48 PGA.  I don't think Norwood Hills would have the Turnesa Ball Room or I would even be a member if Hogan had lost.  You never really know what small thing makes you join a place.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

I just heard the club president speaking last week on a local show and they are in line for the 2011 BMW, but that is not a guarantee due to the lack of corporate sponsorship locally at this time.  As for why they are getting these, they have been schmoozing with the USGA since they hosted the PGA and they are just now getting these tournaments.  If you aren't on their "list" of preferred clubs it takes a long time to get in the "rotation".  This is typical for any club to take on the lower level championships and work their way up to a bigger tournament like the U S Open.  Just look at the history of Southern Hills and the USGA as a prime example of this.  If not for the recommendation of Ben Hogan all those years ago, SH might be a little known gem in Tulsa to most of America.

As for the ranking, this is a common problem for any golf course in Indiana.  It is not as if the raters go out of their way to play someplace in the middle of Indiana, it is a reputation the state needs to overcome quickly for many reasons.  Couple that with the other courses that have been built in the last ten years that have received noteriety and are the destination du jour (ie Bandon), there have to be some that fall out of the rankings.  Crooked Stick happens to be one of the casualties.  

Perhaps it has something with all of the tinkering that Pete Dye has done over the years to the course.  I know I personally think the course was better in the late 80s or early 90s than it was the last time I saw it.  Maybe it is a better host for tournaments, but the golf course has decreased in quality over time.  

Besides, I've seen most of the top privates in Indiana except for Victornia National and South Bend (several in the last 6 months) and I would be hesitant to rate any of them a top 100.  I've seen better courses that aren't on the list.  That comment includes Crooked Stick, Wolf Run or Sycamore Hills.

But don't ask me how Sycamore Hills got back in the top 100 this year.  I'll never figure that one out.  

Chris,

I think you are taking the Southern Hills logic and applying it to all USGA courses. I don't agree with what you are saying at all. MANY,MANY courses host US Senior Opens and the lower level tournaments without ever sniffing the Open. Many times there is an amateur event that gets scheduled to go along with a Senior Open which is determined to be a money maker for the club. NCR 98 Mid and 05 Senior and Crooked Stick are good examples of this. Lately, the USGA has been seeming to package the Open with The Amateur and throw in another event like the Junior at Olympic, but I have never a seen a course host a lower level event and then gain an Open because of its performance in that event alone.

[Glenn Spencer]

George,

I forgot about the Women's Open in 2010.  That should be a supreme test for the lady golfers.  The short game and putting demands of OCC will be daunting.

Oakmont as a match play course would be something.  Start the campaign!

As for one state (or Commonwealth) having two such illustrious and different courses, Pennsylvania is blessed with these two bookend greats.  

Here are Oakmont's USGA events over 10 decades (7 decades in a row):

US Open Championships
Men's
1927 - Tommy Armour
1935 - Sam Parks
1953 - Ben Hogan
1962 - Jack Nicklaus
1973 - Johnny Miller
1983 - Larry Nelson
1994 - Ernie Els
2007 - Angel Cabrera

Women's
1992 - Patty Sheehan
2010 -

US Amateur Champions
1919 - S. Davidson Heron
1925 - Bobby Jones
1938 - Willie Turnesa
1969 - Steve Melnyk
2003 -  Nick Flanagan
 
PGA Championships
1922 - Gene Sarazen
1951 - Sam Snead
1978 - John Mahaffey

Impressive to say the least and so is Merion's, but CS has them all coming within 3 years.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

You forgot the 2005 Solheim Cup at Crooked Stick.

More diversity.

Nice, Garland. I did forget that one. If The Honors ever a had a Mens Pro tournament, they would lead I think, but CS is really stacking them together.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

I just heard the club president speaking last week on a local show and they are in line for the 2011 BMW, but that is not a guarantee due to the lack of corporate sponsorship locally at this time.  As for why they are getting these, they have been schmoozing with the USGA since they hosted the PGA and they are just now getting these tournaments.  If you aren't on their "list" of preferred clubs it takes a long time to get in the "rotation".  This is typical for any club to take on the lower level championships and work their way up to a bigger tournament like the U S Open.  Just look at the history of Southern Hills and the USGA as a prime example of this.  If not for the recommendation of Ben Hogan all those years ago, SH might be a little known gem in Tulsa to most of America.

As for the ranking, this is a common problem for any golf course in Indiana.  It is not as if the raters go out of their way to play someplace in the middle of Indiana, it is a reputation the state needs to overcome quickly for many reasons.  Couple that with the other courses that have been built in the last ten years that have received noteriety and are the destination du jour (ie Bandon), there have to be some that fall out of the rankings.  Crooked Stick happens to be one of the casualties.  

Perhaps it has something with all of the tinkering that Pete Dye has done over the years to the course.  I know I personally think the course was better in the late 80s or early 90s than it was the last time I saw it.  Maybe it is a better host for tournaments, but the golf course has decreased in quality over time.  

Besides, I've seen most of the top privates in Indiana except for Victornia National and South Bend (several in the last 6 months) and I would be hesitant to rate any of them a top 100.  I've seen better courses that aren't on the list.  That comment includes Crooked Stick, Wolf Run or Sycamore Hills.

But don't ask me how Sycamore Hills got back in the top 100 this year.  I'll never figure that one out.  

I haven't played Syacamore Hills. Victoria National is a great golf course and it deserves everything that it gets, including a US Open if it ever does, but I can't say that I would rather play there than CS. CS's finish kills Victoria's. I know you have it, I would love to be informed someday on what exactly the course was like in the 80's and what has been changed, that or show me how to get it.

I just have never been able to see what

MVGC
The Honors
Scioto
Inverness
Camargo
and some others have that CS doesn't? The place is a pure golf club, has a great membership with important golf people and others. It has hosted everything and been extremely good to the game. Why is it a doormat?

Holston Hills is a great golf course, but to see it 4 spots away from CS is just mind blowing.

[John Nixon]

I am very pleased that a thread about Crooked Stick's qualifications as a major/championship venue has morphed into an accounting of the heretofore unknown tournaments held at an obscure course in western PA.  

[wsmorrison]

John,

Baltusrol USGA championships plus one PGA championship:

U.S. Open 1903, 1915, 1936, 1954, 1967, 1980, 1993
U.S. Amateur 1904, 1926, 1946, 2000
U.S. Women's Open 1961, 1985
U.S. Women's Amateur 1901, 1911

PGA Championship 2005

Six decades in a row (1900s-1960s) and 10 all together.
You do have a point about who wins influencing the reputation of the event and the course.

Are you coming East to collect your book or should I ship it back to you?

[Garland Bayley]

Impressive to say the least and so is Merion's, but CS has them all coming within 3 years.

Glenn,

Any software engineer can tell you that range is computed
high - low + 1
i.e.
2010 - 2007 + 1 = 4 years.
 

[John Kavanaugh]

Glenn,

If given the choice today I would drive the 3 hours it would take to play Crooked Stick over the 1 hour it would take for me to drive to Victoria.  Crooked Stick is truly a great course in every catagorie that matters to me.  I do believe that it is being thrown these leftover USGA events as a tribute to the career of Pete Dye.  It sickens me that the USGA refuses to give this great man and architect the US Open during his lifetime.  

[wsmorrison]

Glen,

I did note that CS's events were held within three years.  But surely, many courses beat the tournament history of CS, even with 3 fairly significant (but not major) tournaments in three years.  I think it is a pretty big stretch to consider the US Women's Amateur, US Senior Open and a Western Open over 3 years as more significant than a US Amateur, US Open, and Walker Cup over 8 years.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Baltusrol USGA championships plus one PGA championship:

U.S. Open 1903, 1915, 1936, 1954, 1967, 1980, 1993
U.S. Amateur 1904, 1926, 1946, 2000
U.S. Women's Open 1961, 1985
U.S. Women's Amateur 1901, 1911

PGA Championship 2005

Six decades in a row (1900s-1960s) and 10 all together.
You do have a point about who wins influencing the reputation of the event and the course.

Are you coming East to collect your book or should I ship it back to you?

Wayne,

Heaven can wait...hold on to the book as I need a carrot to keep me focused on what is good in this game.

[Rick Shefchik]

So long as the likes of Hazeltine, Sahalee, and Torrey Pines are on the books as having hosted a championship, I'd be hesitant to cite hosting a tournament as a criterion for a course's excellence.  

John,

Have you ever played Hazeltine? I'd say its GD ranking as the 89th best course in the U.S. is a trifle high -- it's better, in my opinion, than Interlachen (62) and Spyglass (52) -- but not too far from where it belongs.

Hosting a string of successful majors -- U.S. Open, U.S. Women's Open, PGA, U.S. Amateur, Senior Open -- doesn't automatically make it a great golf course, but such a resume ought to count for something.

[Dan Kelly]

So long as the likes of Hazeltine, Sahalee, and Torrey Pines are on the books as having hosted a championship, I'd be hesitant to cite hosting a tournament as a criterion for a course's excellence.  

I would happily play Hazeltine at any opportunity.

What's your definition of "excellent," John Nixon?

(Rick beat me by 48 seconds! Probably because, after writing "Have you ever played Hazeltine, John Nixon?," I DELETED that and went a different direction. Damn!)

[Glenn Spencer]

Impressive to say the least and so is Merion's, but CS has them all coming within 3 years.

Glenn,

Any software engineer can tell you that range is computed
high - low + 1
i.e.
2010 - 2007 + 1 = 4 years.
 

2007 US Women's AM- August

2010 BMW- August

36 months. Touche!!!