Pocono Manor - Donald Ross documentation??

[Craig_Rokke]

I like the "open and airy" look of the old rendering. Same for the larger chipping areas surrounding the green. Now, a tee shot must pop up over mature trees. A little deforestation would be nice there.

For that matter, I know of few courses
that could benefit from a tree management/re-design/reconditioning plan like the East could. There's
another hole--I forget the number--where you hit from a highly elevated tee, over a stream to a sharply uphill dogleg left to a very undulating green. This could be a really great hole with the removal of some 50 or so trees, and some new bunkering.

[Mark_Fine]

Craig,
That would be a great hole.  Those trees will likely be firewood one day   and the beauty of that natural golf hole will be opened up again.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

I'd like to get up there.   Do you think that the original tee was over on the left in what is now deep woods based on the angle seen here and the fact that Flynn drew it as 115 yards?


Craig,

The hole you're thinking about is #16, which is one where Flynn drawings exist for.   It's a tremendous roller-coaster of a hole, but you're right...it could be better sans mucho lumber.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
I'd have pull out my notes and photos to see if I could figure that out.  I'd be guessing to say that it might have been there.  

The hole is hardly a golf shot right now but it has lots of potential as does the rest of the golf course.  PM is a great example of a course that has totally deteriorated due to lack of funds and focus.  I believe the new owners will get it sorted out and they will have a gem when its all said and done.  

Let's go play one day this fall.  It would be good to catch up.

[Andy Hughes]

Mark and/ or Mike, could either of you post some pictures of the course? It has been many years since I played there--it would be nice to to get a reminder.

[Chris_Blakely]

Mike / Mark,

I too would love to see some pictures.  This was one of the first courses I played in the Poconos many years ago.  I remember liking the Ross? / Flynn East course a heck of a lot better than the George Fazio West.

I also remember paying $10 to the pro to go around with my buddies a second time ( late in the day).  We finished on the 18th hole at dark and had played it a second time with a cart in under 2 hours.

Chris

[Mark_Fine]

I will try to put up some photos later today or tomorrow.

Chris,
I know it is promoted as such but if that other course there is designed by George Fazio, I'll eat by golf hat!  I don't think so  

[Chris_Blakely]

Mark,

I never reasearched either course much.  I know I liked the East a lot more than the West.  The East course is what really got me on my golf architecture kick when I realized what courses could be.  I know the course is not great, but the terrain is pretty good and some of the green sites are in really unique locations.

As for the West, I am only giong by what they put on the scorecard that it was George Fazio.  Do you know who actually designed it if it is not George Fazio??

Thanks,
Chris

[Craig_Rokke]

Hopefully they will put some new effort/focus  into the course
some day. It could be pretty good. I wonder what would have
happened had they gotten the gambling license they sought.

The 2 courses rank #1 and #2 for the smallest sets of greens I've seen on any golf course.

My wife's grandfather was the head baker at P.M from the 1930's into the early 1960's, and my father-in-law caddied there as a teenager, and has helped run a big tournament there for some 35 years. So I've had the occasion to visit a few times.  Don't know if anyone mentioned that the pro's
Pop, Art Wall, won the Masters in 59' , while also playing out of PM.

Mark Fine-I hope you are right about 16.

[Mark_Fine]

If they had gotten the license, the work would have been well along or even done by now.

Here is the view from the short 77 yard hole  



Here is the hole when you look over the edge



Here is the #16 hole that has been talked about.  A bit claustrophobic to say the least.



Here is the view toward the green on #16



 

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

Great pics!

I haven't been there in awhile and it's sad how enclosed 16 is.

However, I'd have to say that looking again at #7 I'm now about 95% certain that the old pic I displayed shows that the original tee was well over on the left, explaining the 38 yard discrepancy between Flynn's drawing and the present hole.

[Chris_Blakely]

Mark

Thank you for the pictures.  It has been awhile since I have played PM East as well.  But, the two holes you have photos are several of the ones that I remember.

Chris

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
You very well could be correct.  I believe the road is the culprit but we'll check it out next visit.  

[wsmorrison]

Flynn's drawing for the original 3rd hole, today's 7th

[Andy Hughes]

Thanks for the pictures Mark.  Its been 20 odd years since I played there, but I didn't remember 7 being blind, or the green being so small or 16 being so narrow (of course, I likely drove it with much less fear as a teen  ).  

To follow up--if Fazio didn't do the second course, who did?

[Mark_Fine]

AHughes,
Prefer not to comment too much more about the property on line.  I trust you understand.  IM me if you are really interested.
Mark