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Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2007, 05:17:05 PM »
Kerry,

Don't get me wrong, the surface does not necessarily have to be completely flat and void of interest, however it should not be near the other extreme either IMHO. Perhaps smaller greens are in favor when designing a blind approach?

I see your point about labeling the hole location on the tee, but dosen't that kill the basic premise of a blind shot?

Cheers

billb

Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2007, 05:54:18 PM »
Blind shots can be cool. I agree with the general sentiment of the thread: the landing area has to be fair. For a tee shot, piles of rough, fairways with lots of movement, and bunkers are not cool. For approach shots, the green has to be mostly flat and devoid of bunkers (Like The Dell).

My favorite blind approach (so far) is #14 at Cruden Bay. Pure punchbowl green, just launch something up there and it will end up on the short grass. Maybe too easy, but very cool.

Worst blind approach: #9 at Golf Club at Vistoso in Tucson. This is a Weiskopf course that gets pretty good reviews. #9 has a green with a couple big humps that reject golf balls. It is actually a pretty cool green that would be fine if you see it from the fairway. Not sure what Mr. Weiskopf was thinking.

Mike_Cirba

Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2007, 09:24:17 AM »
Tom,

This past week I saw a blind hole unlike anything I've seen before, at a farmland nine-holer in upstate New York called Pleasant Knolls.  I should say partially blind, because you could see the flag.

The concept seemed so simple...I scratched my brain trying to recall ever seeing it before to no avail.

It's a par three about 120 yards long.   The first 90 yards are dead flat, but then there's a short ridge running horizontally across the target line, perhaps a total of 3-4 feet in elevation change, and then falling about the same for a span of about 25 yards.   Just beyond the top of the ridge the green starts, with the entire surface hidden from view, and then running downhill front to back with the natural grade.   Front to back the green is approximately 20 yards, and about the same in width.

Behind the green there was nothing but short grass, but it did occur to me that perhaps a hazard of some sort (bunker would probably be too easy) might make for some interesting decision-making from the tee.  

As it stands, however, the hole is sort of elegant in its complete simplicity and minimalistic use of the landform.

David Schofield

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Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2007, 03:14:51 AM »
I'm surprised that a discussion of blind holes doesn't include a reference to Tobacco Road.  By my count there are as many as 7 holes with one or more blind shots (1, 2, 7, 13, 15, 16, 18).  

In my opinion, Hole #18 has one each of the "good" and "bad" blind shots.  An aiming "post" is provided on the drive and its clear from the yardage book that the fairway is quite accommodating, so I guess I'd consider this a "good" blind shot.  The approach, however, can be blind from a majority of the fairway.  I had to walk from the center of the fairway, up a slope on the right to see where the pin was, and from there I could not see that there were several huge punchbowls surrounding the green.  I would have been a wee bit upset if I would have hit a shot that I thought was decent, only to find myself in a 6' deep punchbowl.  I would consider this a "bad" blind shot.

Lest you think I only like easy blind shots, I very much enjoyed the blind approach to Hole #13.

Ron Farris

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Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2007, 12:08:07 PM »


Tom Doak

I really like blind shots.  I think it is because there is a great suspense factor.  We often want most what we can't have.  The average golfer thinks they must see everything, but they often talk the most about the suspenseful shots after the round.  I would agree that I was disappointed with Prestwick and the green complex.

I remember the end of the day when PB came rushing into the trailer at Long Cove so excited about the bunkering and green complex.  He couldn't wait to get out there and rake-down those bunkers on the back side of the dune.  I have not played that hole since the late 80's.  How does it play with the current technology?  My guess is that the long ball hitters look directly at the green?  Mr. Nysse you may have input?

I agree that definition is key for a blind shot, but if one has a rather bland horizon line and walks over the hill to see something spectacular, precarious, or something with a thrill factor is it or is it not a good blind shot?

Also, some girls in bikinis look better than, well without!  Place the Rock carefully ;)

Scott Witter

Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2007, 12:15:48 PM »
The subject of blindness and its inherent qualities has been well discussed...did anyone else, but perhaps Tom Paul wherever he is, notice the remarkable diversity of replies from so many varying posters?  I find it refreshing to see so many regular and new names who have responded to a thoughtful question as opposed to the standard 6-8 posters who battle back and forth with no useful conclusion.

Sean_A

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Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2007, 12:34:49 PM »
I'm surprised that a discussion of blind holes doesn't include a reference to Tobacco Road.  By my count there are as many as 7 holes with one or more blind shots (1, 2, 7, 13, 15, 16, 18).  

In my opinion, Hole #18 has one each of the "good" and "bad" blind shots.  An aiming "post" is provided on the drive and its clear from the yardage book that the fairway is quite accommodating, so I guess I'd consider this a "good" blind shot.  The approach, however, can be blind from a majority of the fairway.  I had to walk from the center of the fairway, up a slope on the right to see where the pin was, and from there I could not see that there were several huge punchbowls surrounding the green.  I would have been a wee bit upset if I would have hit a shot that I thought was decent, only to find myself in a 6' deep punchbowl.  I would consider this a "bad" blind shot.

Lest you think I only like easy blind shots, I very much enjoyed the blind approach to Hole #13.

In thinking back to The Road I don't think there are as many blind shots as you suggest.  

#1 is certainly blind for the tee shot and the second (or third depending on how one plays it).  However, the drive being blind is of little consequence.  The second being blind makes a huge difference though.  

#2 is blind if one takes the conservative drive out to the left.  An aggressive drive to the right offers a view of the green.  This is what I think of as an example as an excellent risk/reward concerning blindness.  However, I wouldn't call the hole blind if there is an option to see the green.

#7 is blind, but it doesn't make a lick of difference.

#13 can be blind off the tee for those aggressive enough to go over the trees on the right.  Again, a safe and very visible option is offered straight away.  The second is either a blind layup or for the flat bellies a blind approach.  Sometimes the flag can be seen.  I would say both the layup and the approach are effected by the blindness.  Cleverly, I think the much more important issue for the approach is the raised green.  The blindness probably puts people off, but the real issue is to take enough club because so many come up short here.

#15 offers a blind drive for the aggressive and a straight forward layup in sight.  Again, I wouldn't label this a blind hole because there is a choice.  If the layup is well placed with the pin on the right it can be seen.  I am not sure if the pin can be seen if its far left from anywhere in the fairway unless a guy bombs it down left of the 16th tee.  Its certainly doable for flat bellies.  I encouraged Big Ed Galbavy to do just this, but he understandably had the jitters about doing this.  

#16 tee shot is blind, but like the approach to #13, the important aspect is not the blindness, but taking enough club to leave oneself a straight away uphill approach.  There is plenty of room for the layup drive so I think blindness is of little consequence.

#18 is blind off the tee, but its really a matter of smacking a good straight drive - the blindness isn't an issue - the penal nature of the shot is much more the issue.  I don't mind it though because all good courses need to have some shots which REQUIRE something of the player - meaning, there is no option, do as you are told or suffer.  The approach is normally blind unless one hits a cracking drive and in the perfect spot.  Like you, I was a bit perplexed at finding my first approach left when I though I hit it perfectly.  Its a bit of a nasty blind approach because its tough and I am not sure it works.  This is the only blind shot on the course I would question and they may be mostly down to it being the last hole.  I think it would work better if this hole came earlier in the round - it gives one a chance to wash out the bad taste this hole can leave.

So, I don't think blindness is nearly as much an issue at TR as a cursary glance may suggest.  In this way I think Strantz was extremely clever.  There is so much to admire about The Road that I think all golfers should see the course at least a few times.

Ciao

   

 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 01:15:06 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

Roger Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2007, 05:36:56 PM »
I'm a little late on this but since it's been brought up...

I've never been a fan of Blind Par 3s... What if I get a hole in one? I'd like to see it go in the hole, but thats just personal preference. One could say that about an Eagle or Double Eagle as well I suppose.

The Blind holes at County Down blew me away, and I remember being told the course wasn't set up to play with large/powerful winds like some other of the Irish links courses. As the course was originally set up with Tom Morris focusing around the massive dune next to the 9th green, the "Matterhorn" dune, they did a spectacular job using natural landscape and presenting a challenge.

I had never liked blind holes all that much until the Ireland trip this summer. I liked to see what was in front of me. It was until I played #5 at Portmarnock, #9 at Royal County Down, and #5 at Royal Portrush that I had a real appreciation for what these holes have to offer. I remember hitting the ball over a stupid white rock at Portmarnock thinking "This could go absolutely anywhere" but walking over the hill to an absolutely spectacular site. They really did a great job of hiding the hole below the dune, and literally I went from not being able to view anything to being able to see it all. It blew me away. The 5th at Portrush was awesome as well, as the hole gave an illusion of being much shorter and having a VERY tight landing area, which wasn't the case; this hole also has the spectacular view of the white cliffs and the castle next to the green. The 9th at Royal County Down is my favorite golf hole, and I just teed off not knowing what it had to offer, just aiming at the Slieve Donald "steeple." I walked up to what was one of the most stunning holes I had ever seen with its massive drop-off and green-guarding dune, what was left of the "Matterhorn" dune.

As far as there use today, I would LOVE to see them more, but too many modern courses are going the way of ground-moving instead of shaping holes over dunes. Exhibit A: Trump. I just love well hidden holes I suppose.

I also caught that story a while back of the caddy at Carnoustie or Prestwick, can't remember which, that was in a golf magazine about when we were across the pond in early July. The story was about a group that was playing in early morning through HEAVY fog, visibility was about 10 yards. The caddies were lining the players up with divots in the tee boxes. Through about 8 or 9 holes, no golfer was doing worse than 2 or 3 over, but then the fog lifted and they saw the course's true nature for eating golf balls, and as they say "The shit hit the fan."

Not knowing what could screw up your score can often help you mentally as I'm sure you all know.
Cornell University '11 - Tedesco Country Club - Next Golf Vacation: Summer 2015 @ Nova Scotia & PEI (14 Rounds)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2007, 06:34:55 PM »
I appreciate all the replies.  I suspect the percentage of fans of blind shots on this web site is 50x as high as among American golfers in general, but it's nice to hear that not everyone is closed-minded about the subject, anyway.

And thanks for the photo of P.B. at his finest, Ron.

Bill Brownrigg:  I'm curious about your description of the hole at Vistoso because Gil Hanse and I built a similar green at Black Forest -- a punchbowl with several little knobs hidden within.  We did it on the idea that you could see the flag and what to aim for, but if you just hit it into the bowl you might wind up 3-putting.  If you can't see the flag at all on the Vistoso hole, then I would agree with your take on it.  That is not at all the kind of hole I would expect Weiskopf to build, but occasionally he throws in something weird and writes it off to "whimsy".
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 06:35:45 PM by Tom_Doak »

Richard Boult

Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2007, 08:04:34 PM »
I especially enjoy watching my tee shot carry and then disappear over a hill when the fairway then runs from there downhill to the green. I like the anticipation of finding out if I hit that perfect line that gives you that extra downhill roll for a 350+ yard drive!  Depending on the quality and accuracy of my drive on the 18th at Monarch Dunes, I can find myself anywhere from 115 yards out to on the green or next to it on this 385 yard par 4.

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2007, 09:06:53 PM »
I second R.Boult. the 16th at Pasatiempo comes to mind as well as the 7th at Blackhawk. The view from the tees on these holes is not exactly awe inspiring, but the revelation from the top of the ridge in the fairway is great at both holes and the anticipation of seeing just how good the drive was is fun. Also, there is an element of safety in these blind holes since the well struck shot that carries the ridge will run downhill on the opposite side, taking one more out of harms way while playing the next shot than if the landing zone was flat.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2007, 07:53:02 PM »
Ron,
  Regarding the 5th at Long Cove, I always just hit a 2 iron to the middle of the fairway-leaves me about 75 yards in and I always know where the hole is cut!  ;)
  For most of our membership, it's a fairways metal to the middle/left side. I can't say that they love it nor hate it. I know that when the VERIZON HERITAGE is on Hilton Head in April, almost everyone of the pro grabs a driver and give it a go. I've seen quite a few successful-small target-4732 square feet.(We were just GPS for a proposed 2009 complete renovation.)

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Walt_Cutshall

Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2007, 09:02:58 PM »
I think my favourite type of blind hole is the type where if you flirt with a hazrd off the tee you are rewarded with a view to the green. But if you bail out off the tee you face a blind shot into the green. To me, those kinds are the most thrilling. I beleive Pete Dye built a number of these types of holes.

You're describing the 5th hole at Long Cove perfectly. I don't care for blind shots, and didn't like the 5th hole at all. But after playing it a few times, I changed my mind. It is a terrific little hole. If you're willing to flirt with a lagoon, you can get a peek at the green. Otherwise, you're hitting a wedge into a green that is bordered by water and sand.

I don't mind the occasional blind shot if you have a chance to control the position of your ball. Blind shots tend to introduce uncertainty into ones mind, and that's a pretty effective way to challenge a golfer.

Edit: Jeepers, I guess I should have read the whole thread before responding.  :D
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 09:04:58 PM by Walt C. »

Mike_Cirba

Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2007, 09:45:50 PM »
I appreciate all the replies.  I suspect the percentage of fans of blind shots on this web site is 50x as high as among American golfers in general, but it's nice to hear that not everyone is closed-minded about the subject, anyway.

And thanks for the photo of P.B. at his finest, Ron.

Bill Brownrigg:  I'm curious about your description of the hole at Vistoso because Gil Hanse and I built a similar green at Black Forest -- a punchbowl with several little knobs hidden within.  We did it on the idea that you could see the flag and what to aim for, but if you just hit it into the bowl you might wind up 3-putting.  If you can't see the flag at all on the Vistoso hole, then I would agree with your take on it.  That is not at all the kind of hole I would expect Weiskopf to build, but occasionally he throws in something weird and writes it off to "whimsy".

Funny how opinions differ.

#9 at Vistoso was the only hole I really liked on the golf course.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2007, 11:20:19 PM »
We are building a blind hole outside of Newark DE with a twist.

Its a drivable par four.

The direct line to the green has a truncated fairway that ends with a quarry cliff that drops about 30' to a pond, with the green site beyond.

If one plays out to the left they can be rewarded with a funneling of a well played shot that might find the green surface.

The hole is a minimal marvel, with negligible earth work required to build the hole.

The difference will occur in the method of determining when the green has cleared.

The owner recently suggested that a remote camera be placed to record all the action at the green site....with the monitor at the tee....not just to see when people have left the green, but instead to be able to track the balls progress in real time as it makes, or doesn't make, its appearance rolling onto the green.
It will make for less suspense when walking to the green to view the outcome of a previously hit shot....but it will dramatically increase the excitement players have on the tee as they track a balls appearance on a monitor when it enters the green site.

That's the twist.

Purists will scream.....but they don't have to look  ;)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 11:30:20 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2007, 01:57:58 AM »
I prefer P4 holes that have "blind" approches to be bunkerless...Rye's 13th / Kingston Heath's 17th / 14th Cruden Bay work well as far starters you should easily find your ball once you get over the rise. Even if you miss the green you still have a good chance of getting a par with a chip and putt.

I also dont mind P3's to be "blind" so long as they're also bunkerless. The Dell's at Lahinch + Cruden Bay spring immediately to mind.

billb

Re:What Makes a Blind Hole Good (or Bad)
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2007, 07:23:59 PM »
I appreciate all the replies.  I suspect the percentage of fans of blind shots on this web site is 50x as high as among American golfers in general, but it's nice to hear that not everyone is closed-minded about the subject, anyway.

And thanks for the photo of P.B. at his finest, Ron.

Bill Brownrigg:  I'm curious about your description of the hole at Vistoso because Gil Hanse and I built a similar green at Black Forest -- a punchbowl with several little knobs hidden within.  We did it on the idea that you could see the flag and what to aim for, but if you just hit it into the bowl you might wind up 3-putting.  If you can't see the flag at all on the Vistoso hole, then I would agree with your take on it.  That is not at all the kind of hole I would expect Weiskopf to build, but occasionally he throws in something weird and writes it off to "whimsy".

Tom:
Yes, the flagstick is visible but I don't know if #9 at Vistoso could be called a punchbowl. First of all, the right side of the green is open to the fairway, but the left side is behind a bunch of desert gunk. If you hit a medicore drive as I did and the pin is left you would have to fly the gunk to get at the flag. Then there is a depression a couple of feet in depth in front of the putting surface. There is one large mound in the front center of the green and a few smaller ones elsewhere. I guess the amount of movement on and around the green just did not seem right for a blind shot.

Your hole at Black Forest sounds fair - if the hole is a true punchbowl that makes it easier for the golfer to get the ball on the green, then a challenging green is okay.

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