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Mike_Cirba

Architectural Opinion
« on: August 21, 2002, 07:27:45 PM »
From time to time, I like to anonymously quote architects here for discussion purposes (as well as the fun of guessing who said what!).  A magazine came in the mail this evening, and I thought quotes by a fairly well-known and successful architect bore repeating.

For your consideration...

"In designing "Course X", keeping in mind the competition and the market, we knew we needed to do something that would stand out.  Part of it is this belief of mine that we have to have bold, dramatic, dynamic features on a golf course.  The minimalist, less-is-better approach does not work for me in the golf business."

About 450,000 cubic yards of earth were moved to create this bold, dynamic look  The architect has moved less on some of his other projects and much more on others, such as 11 million cubic yards on a 36 hole layout in "Country X".

"Here at Course X, we could have moved less, but the course would have looked flatter and not as interesting.  We could have moved a million, as some architects arbitrarily do.  But it would have looked artificial and excessive and we would have lost it on this site.  We had to find a balance, and I believe we did that."

"When I have a choice, I want to do something that is bold, and strong and dramatic, rather than very soft, calm, and understated.  I get bored if I get on this understated, too-soft type of design.  I know people say that it is the way Alister Mackenzie or Donald Ross did their designs.  But they were doing it in 1920 when no one had a bulldozer.  Moving 40 yards of dirt took a mule and half a day.  If they had bulldozers, they would have used them."

"Golf has become more visual.  There are places for the minimalist.  Places where it makes sense.  But it is not satisfying to all golfers.  If we did not move the earth that we did here, this course would have been completely different."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2002, 07:53:50 PM »
P.B. Dye?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2002, 08:16:51 PM »
Craig;

Good guess, but I've now played two of this architects courses and I feel confident stating the he almost makes PB look like a minimalist.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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CHrisB

Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2002, 09:22:36 PM »
Boy, that sounds like Mike Strantz to me.  Is 'Course X' Tobacco Road?

On second thought, he hasn't done anything outside of the U.S., has he??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2002, 10:56:11 PM »
Quote
"Here at Course X, we could have moved less, but the course would have looked flatter and not as interesting.  We could have moved a million, as some architects arbitrarily do.  But it would have looked artificial and excessive and we would have lost it on this site.  We had to find a balance, and I believe we did that."

Mike, at the risk of starting a riot, the above sounds vaguely familiar with something I think I remember Doak saying about Lubbock.  Was I dreaming that?  The other parts of the quote and specially your saying his other stuff makes PB look minimalist doesn't square with TD.  Or, are you using some sort of diverasionary Clintonian parsing of words?  :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Patrick Hitt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2002, 01:20:26 AM »
I'm going to guess Dana Fry. He's not afraid to move that dirt around.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2002, 04:01:19 AM »
Good guesses, all, but no ceegar yet.  This architect has done quite a bit of overseas work.

Also, what are everyone's thoughts on the ideas expressed.  Is he being realistic, giving the public what they want?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rick_Noyes

Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2002, 04:42:17 AM »
I've been an architect with Dan Maples Design since 1995 and it's been my experience that designing with the specific intent on pleasing the public is a lost cause.  You make the effort, none the less.  But as this forum shows, some people will love it, some will hate it, some will be indifferent.  It really starts with the site, then the budget.  We don't generally move a lot of dirt unless we have to.  At The Wizard and Man-of-War project we had a 325 acre site that was just about dead flat.  A 80 acre lake wsa dug to generate the dirt to build the features and even then it was around 2 million yards of dirt.

As to the quote, I was first going to say Strantz, then PB but I see those were wrong.  Based on the "overseas" part I'll just guess Nicklaus.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Justin_Ryan

Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2002, 05:14:12 AM »
RTJ jr
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2002, 06:02:09 AM »
It sounds alot like someone who doesn't lurk here. ;)
No one in the mainstream would ever hear of minimalist, and it sounds like groundwork to poo poo the prevalent mindset here. What's that about there being no bad publicity?

So, my first guess is Tf, second GN.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2002, 06:18:35 AM »
Judging by the photos I've seen of his overseas work, it looks like Nick Faldo likes to move a lot of dirt.

For those of you who think Mike Strantz, check out his feature interview on this site. He says he moves a lot less than everyone thinks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2002, 06:42:25 AM »
Jim Engh
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2002, 06:49:06 AM »
Not Strantz, for the overseas part and 36-hole layout part.

Not Faldo, as he loves classic golf courses.

Nicklaus moves a lot, but I really don't think he would say all that.

Not Fazio, as his speech isn't even that eloquent.  And has he ever done anything outside the U.S.?

I'm also going to rule out RTJ, Jr. and Norman for various reasons.

Steel is a traditionalist at heart, so not him.

I don't have a guess really, other than to rule out who I think didn't say it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2002, 06:59:28 AM »
Scott;

In the words of Dr. Evil, "the boy is quite perceptive, really...rather astute like his father."  You're correct that none of those mentioned to date are the author.  

As far as another clue, this architect has primarily worked on the west coast and internationally and is not RTJ Jr.  

But, more importantly, what do we all THINK about his major points?  Is earth moving necessarily bad?  What about Whistling Straits or Twisted Dune?

Or, is the "reason" for earthmoving important?  Do designers feel that they HAVE to do it to compete visually?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2002, 07:03:45 AM »
Bruce Devlin? Kyle Phillips?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2002, 07:18:43 AM »
Ted Robinson.

The one architect below Fazio on The Emperor's list.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2002, 07:25:41 AM »
Mike, his points seem banal like a Clinton speech.

Damian?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2002, 07:36:04 AM »
Nope.

This architect went solo in 1972, after six years under RTJ Sr.  His university experience "emphasized ornamental horticulture."

Most of his US work is in California, although he's built courses from Indonesia, to France, to Brunei, to Finland and Bali.  

Here's a couple of pics of the course he's talking about in my first post.







« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2002, 07:36:41 AM »
I'll second Ted Robinson
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

WilliamWang

Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2002, 07:41:57 AM »
ornamental horticulture gave it away...

the firm he founded has two names in it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2002, 07:48:43 AM »
Nope, this isn't Mr. Robinson's neighborhood...

I sense Mr. Wang has the correct answer. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2002, 07:49:09 AM »
Robin Nelson, or Ron Fream.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2002, 07:50:22 AM »
Dick,

One of your guesses is correct.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2002, 08:07:58 AM »
hmmm... has anyone ever seen these two fellows standing together in the same place at the same time?  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Opinion
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2002, 08:14:02 AM »
i dunno...maybe perry dye?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"
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