[TEPaul]

You know, Kyle Harris's thread "Roundtable Discussion #1" is a whole lot of food for thought in the five questions it asks for answers on to be discussed later.

Looking at them I don't think I'm ready to even offer answers on any of them right now. In other words, I'd like to take much more time to think about them all.

But #5 got most of my attention:

"5. What do you believe are the most common misconceptions about the importance and concepts of golf architecture?"

For some reason I couldn't stop thinking about that question.

I have no idea how apropos it is but the thing that popped into my head is how often so many people talk about what holes look like---eg how memorable looking they are etc. I don't hear people talk about how memorable holes actually play anywhere near as much as I hear them say how memorable holes look.

So, for some reason, I started thinking about this question:

"What are the most memorable looking first three holes on a golf course you've ever seen?

I thought about that for quite a while and I believe my impression is, and my answer would be, from seeing it first about 45 years ago and then seeing it again after about 40 years that I have never seen the first three holes on any golf course that are as memorable as are NGLA's. Perhaps not even close anywhere else.

Is it any wonder this course is so enduring, famous and revered in the world of architecture, particularly amongst architects? I've never seen or heard anyone say about NGLA---"Oh, it's just another course like so many others."

It obviously gets most everyone's attention out of the box in the way those first three holes "look"---eg they really are memorable that way.

But add to that the many different ways they play too and you have something that would almost have to appeal.

When I say the first three holes of NGLA are unusual looking I really mean they are just so different looking than any holes anywhere?

Sorry, Kyle, this is sort of a tangent off your really thoughtful thread and its five questions. I need more time to think about your questions.

Actually, there's no reason not to go on with NGLA as the first eight holes are pretty unusual looking from most anything else I've seen anywhere. And add to that most of the rest too.  

Sorry, there's no question here----I'm just into a bit of free associating again. Kyle's good questions seems to have inspired that.

[Michael Christensen]

great thread......Oakmont #1-3 have to be in the top 5

[TEPaul]

Hey Shivas, you want to hear something funny? Actually sort of pathetic?

I once asked Coore what he felt about NGLA and what he said was; "I can't believe those guys had the guts to do what they did here."

I agree with him.

I love looking at sites and landforms and such and imagining golf holes and routings and so forth but I know damn well if I'd seen the site of NGLA when it was raw land and I knew where the cluhouse was to be I would have put a first tee just about where it is but I would have gone straight out with the first hole and probably put the first green up on top of the ridge where the crest of the second fairway is.

I might have even thought that would be a pretty cool looking and playing hole but imagine what I'd have overlooked by doing that?

Coore was right by asking "How did they have the guts to do what they did?"

On some of those holes I'd ask; "How did they even imagine them in the first place?"

[TEPaul]

If some wise-acre actually says----

"Yah, well, guess what, originally they weren't the first three holes, only the first three holes of the back nine---I'll fire my .45 at 'em.  

[Matt_Cohn]

Somewhere on the list, SF Club.

[Gene Greco]

TE:

   Is there course which could even be considered a close second in this regard?

        Gene    

[James Bennett]

I haven't seen NGLA.

I fondly remember the first three at Plainfield (edit - actually, I misplaced the #3 par 3 and thoguht the #4 short par 4 was the third.  Not so memorable after all, perhaps.  Plainfield's first 5 are pretty good though.  Outstanding actually).

James B

Further edit - for an unusual looking first three holes - that Poster Child of quirk, North Berwick West.  The uphill approach to the first, the shot across the beach on the second, and that damn wall on the third, plus the glimpses of the Redan and the Marine Hotel.  Pretty unusual looking.

[TEPaul]

Not that I can think of Gene. Right now I don't know that I can even think of a first hole anywhere else as unusual looking as NGLA's #1.

Well, there are a couple that come to mind:

Misquamicut's #1 looks like a Giant's washboard but other than that it's just a straigthaway hole.

This is a bit ironic because they're probably the first 2-3 good courses and architecture in America---eg preceding NGLA---but GCGC's first hole is sort of unusual looking for the first timer because you wonder which way on the two distinct fairways you should go or even why.  

This last one probably does rival NGLA for being really unusual looking----Myopia's #1.

Believe me, I doubt you'll ever see another opening hole anywhere that looks or plays like this one.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I'd agree with your choice.

What's really interesting about the opening holes at NGLA, and you can extend them to whatever number you're comfortable with, is the reaction from first time players.

Most have NEVER seen anything remotely close to what they experience on the opening holes.

The blindness, the quirkiness, the variety and the wind make it an unusual and a great golfing experience.

[Gerry B]

i agree re :myopia hunt club   - 290 yd blind par 4 / short par 5 with a semi blind approach / 253 yd par 3

MHC and NGLA have to be the champions of quirk on this side of the pond

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

If this is the sort of tangent you can pull from my questions, I'm honored. Please do answer on the thread when you can.

My nomination are the first three holes on Huntingdon Valley's C-Nine. I have yet to actually play a series of opening holes so demanding off the tee in terms of both placement and shot shape. I would even say they are comparable to NGLA in terms of the severity of the terrain.

The scale of those holes are just huge and one feels as though they can't aim far enough left on the first and third (or hit a pure enough draw).

The 2nd has been oft discussed here and lives on in infamy for a lot of the feint of heart.  

Tee shots aside, the second shots are some of the more demanding out there, especially on the first two holes. Couple that with the neat fall-away green on the third and you have an opening of three very memorable holes.

[Mark_Fine]

I think there might be a few in the British Isles that would rank right up there.  North Berwick has already been mentioned.  How about Prestwick?  Tom, how would you compare these?

[Doug Siebert]

Its pretty hard to beat Prestwick here.  You've got the wonderful first, with the railroad running hard down the right side from tee to green.  Then you move onto the short second, with plenty of nasty pot bunkers clearly visible from the tee, waiting to eat your ball and start your round off wrong.

After that you reach the third, the world famous Cardinal, where you've got more quirk on that one hole than on any one entire course most people can reach on a tankful of gas starting from their house.

[John Kirk]

NGLA instantly came to mind for me also, before I read the first post in its entirety.  Pacific Dunes, in the grand scheme of things, has odd looking first through third holes, but nothing like NGLA.

Wouldn't that hilly course in Britain also qualify named, um...you know, that 4800 yard billy goat track everyone raves about.

[SPDB]

I'd agree re: Prestwick. My first time through Prestwick, the Cardinal was one of the most memorable/unusual holes I had ever played up to that point.

[James Bennett]

Wouldn't that hilly course in Britain also qualify named, um...you know, that 4800 yard billy goat track everyone raves about.

Painswick?  Its challenge for this contest is that there are more unusual holes to come after the first three.

James B

[igrowgrass]

Maidstone. The way the road crosses throughout the first three holes makes it seem out of place.

[Jim Nugent]

How does Tobacco Road rate?

[RJ_Daley]

Jim, I thought of Tobacco Road as well.  Since I haven't laid eyes on NGLA, I'll also say Sutton Bay has three stunning openers, followed by 3 more, 3 more, 3 more 3 more, and finishing with 3 more.  Sutton has some of the most impressive visual holes I have ever seen.

[Rich Goodale]

Good thread Tom

Since this is a golf architecture website and not a travelogue, NGLA doesn't count since the current 1-3 weren't designed as such.  What was that poseur CBM thinking when he made the current 10-12 his opening holes and 9 his finisher?  Before you shoot me with that .45, I'm just the messenger.  Shoot Charlie!

Getting back to architecture, thanks James for reminding us of Painswick.  You are right that the current 1-3 there are relatively pedestrian (if one's definition of pedestrianism involves walking up 20% grades....).  However, as the course was designed, the first three at Painswick were the current 9, 10, and 11.  A 490 yard par 5 where I saw a famous golfer lay up after a good drive, a 130 yard hit it over a hill and hope hole with a severely canted left to right green where I saw that famous golfer halve in 2 with a famous GCA, then a 246 yard par 4 which has more complexity than any 3 holes at NGLA where one which those two famous people also halved in birdie, one chipping in, one with a fairly pedestrian 10 foot putt.

When I called the 1st at Pacific Dunes "Painswickean" many years ago, I was thinking of these sort of holes.....

Rich

[James Bennett]

Richard

Painswick would also get the award for the most unusual last 4 holes - on the original course.  And. the old fifth hole would have been a pleasant teaser (par 3.55) before returning to the Roman Fort.

James B

[Ed Tilley]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=13285;start=0

Perranporth. Absolute madness from start to finish but the first 3 holes take some beating in the crazy stakes. Sidehill fairway on the first. Triple blind par 5 second. Skyline 3rd - see your ball come back to your feet from 100 yards out.

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

Read my post.  If NGLA's new opening holes are included, so must be Painswick's old ones.

Rich

PS--good to see Perranporth getting a mention!

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

In case you've missed the point, this site is about the great men (one day, maybe great persons) who have created great architecture, not about what later Commitees do to these great men's great works.

Macdonald the Great chose to start with 3 only slightly above average holes when he built NGLA.  Some Commitee improved upon that by switching the 9's and building a new clubhosue down the hill.  Brown the Great "architected" a fantastic opening 3 at Painswick, which some future Commitee neutered by building a new clubhouse down the hill.

Like most poeple on this site, I do not care what exists today, only what was envisioned by the greats of the Golden Age.

Rich

[Rich Goodale]

Oui, mon ami

But when the past and the present are both present in the present (as with 1-3/10-12 NGLA and 9-11/1-3 Painswick), one has to open one's eyes.  Non?

Richard

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