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Joel_Stewart

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Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« on: August 17, 2007, 12:54:03 PM »
Somehow I am on an email list for a new housing development here in the San Francisco Bay Area called Stonebrae.  It features a David Kidd course which may be his first course in the US since Bandon Dunes, not counting Nanea.

I plan to play it in the next month or so.  Below are some photos.




Tom Huckaby

Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2007, 01:04:58 PM »
Joel:

I've been following the progress of this one and I am looking forward to seeing it.  I've heard some reports about it so far from early lookers... not all glowing.  But I shall definitely keep an open mind.

NCGA course rating is September 18.  I'll definitely report after that.

TH

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2007, 02:16:15 PM »
I can't tell a damn thing from that top picture.  The bunkers look quite interesting.  The green on the top picture is probably on the lower part, around where the dear is standing???

The course is a par 72, yardage 7,295 from the back tees.

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2007, 02:48:32 PM »
I can't tell a damn thing from that top picture.  The bunkers look quite interesting.  The green on the top picture is probably on the lower part, around where the dear is standing???

The course is a par 72, yardage 7,295 from the back tees.

Joel,

I thought the bunker looked something like John Daly's liver.

Bob

Bill_McBride

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2007, 05:38:55 PM »
Where is it?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2007, 05:42:35 PM »
Hayward hills

Bill_McBride

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2007, 05:46:49 PM »
Speaking of the brown rough, I always loved that look in the Bay Area, where the unirrigated rough got that yellow-brown look with the greener fairway in between.  And hard too.  Lots of times in the "old days" we would aim for the hard pan short roughs, many more yards that way!  ;D

Tim Leahy

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2007, 06:14:25 PM »
Any of the Bay Area guys heard anything new on the infamous "Institute" golf course?
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2007, 06:16:24 PM »
Any of the Bay Area guys heard anything new on the infamous "Institute" golf course?

Not me.  Still very private, still don't know anyone who's played it.  I know OF a few who have, haven't spoken directly to anyone who has though.  Of course I remain curious also.

TH

ed_getka

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2007, 03:21:09 AM »
I went up and walked the front nine and a few holes on the back last week. I think the course will be pretty well received overall, but I think the greatest attribute of the course is the view. The land that was provided as a canvas is pretty severe, but nowhere near as difficult as the Greywalls and Stone Eagle sites that Mike DeVries and Tom Doak respectively had to work with.
   The first hole plays straightaway (par 4) and has a centerline bunker in the landing area, then the hole rises up slightly on the way to the green. The greens in generally have some pretty good movement built in. There did seem to be a tendency on the dozen or so holes that I saw to bisect the greens side to side or front to back, sometimes with a ridge, sometimes with a tier. The first green has a muffin in the back right that I couldn't figure out the purpose of as it seems to just make the back right quadrant unpinnable. I'll be interested to hear what you guys think next month.
   #2 par 4, nicknamed "Ever" I was told as in worst hole ever. I wasn't nearly that bad although it was yet again an essentially straight hole which unfortunately the majority of the holes on the front side are. One of the prominent features you notice throughout the holes that I saw was the amount of movement that was built into the fairways that I am sure will add interest to approach shots as you will not always have a level lie to play from. Up at the green end there is a shallow kidney-shaped green awaiting approach shots. Oddly the front right side of the green falls off so steeply that again there is an unpinnable section of the green that I couldn't figure out the intent of.
  #3 par 3 slightly downhill relatively long hole that opens up from the left and the green is again shallow to the incoming shot. The middle front and right of the green are protected by bunkering. The hole seems to call for a fade (for righties) as there are 3 levels to the green that stairstep down from left to right. The land to the right of the green falls away pretty sharply so flying the ball right at a right pin would be pretty suicidal (except for maybe Tiger Woods). I don't think the contour of the green would work your ball down to the right side, so I think you would have to shape a shot in there to get it moving right.
   #4 par 5 (bottom picture that Joel posted). Tee shot heads out over land that falls away for probably the first 200 yards and then rises up all the way to the green for the rest. I don't have any yardages for these holes as there are no scorecards yet, but I was thinking this was a long tough par 4 so it must be a shade under 500 yards from the mortal tees I would guess. I found out after I walked the front nine that it was a par 5. Another straightaway hole, but at least this one seems to have bunkering that will make the hole play like a double dogleg. I will be interested to hear how this one plays.
   #5 short par 4. One of the pros apparently drove to the edge of the green here. A tight piece of land that "draws" gently to the left so you can only see the right greenside bunker I believe. The architect made a wise decision to bring the cartpath up and over a shoulder to the left, because apparently it was going to cut across the fairway in the original iteration. Easily the most contoured green on the front nine and any length shot will require good ball control to get close. There is a fairway bunker that is blind off the tee that is about 30 yards short of the green (I'm guessing this hole plays about 300 yards) that protects the left side. There seem to be a couple of problems. It doesn't seem possible to get a ball to run between the right greenside bunker and the left fairway bunker. Secondly the carry over the fairway bunker seems so long that most people won't be tempted to try to go for it. Whereas the layup is relatively straightforward, albeit tight. I think if the bunker were moved toward the tee 30 more yards and brought over so you could see just a bit of it that the hole would be improved. Then there would be more temptation to go and the lay up would be a little more intimidating, so there wouldn't be an easy decision for either.
   #6 par 5 looks to be one of the better holes. The tee shot is on a bit of a diagonal so the hole is effectively slides a little right off the tee. The carry looks really long and I would imagine most golfers will have trouble reaching the short grass although I believe you are teeing off with the prevailing wind at your back. On the second shot you have something to think about as there is a band of rough/ditch about 20 yards wide that you need to decide if you can carry or not. I believe you are still 180 out if you decide to lay up. Well-bunkered green with some interesting contour and the back right section actually falls away from you which seems like a nice touch, and certainly something to think about if you are going for it in two when the pin is on the right.
    #7 uphill par 3 into a green that sort of wraps around from front left to back right. There aren't really any slopes that would lead you to call it a reverse redan, but it seems like it will be a pretty good challenge. Pretty solid par 3's on the front side overall I would say.
   #8 straightaway par 4 with central bunker in the landing area. Plenty of slope in the fairway along with some more bunkering that will probably make this one of the tougher holes on the front side. If I remember right there isn't any greenside bunkering on this brute as the tee shot and approach are all the challenge most golfers will be able to handle.
   #9 par 4 straightaway hole that gradually moves uphill all the way to the clubhouse. This fairway is tilted pretty sharply from left to right and there didn't seem to be any flat areas up on the left where you could get a ball to stay which is what you would want since the green opens up from the left. It seems like most approach shots will have to come in over the deep bunker guarding the front right of the green.
   Speaking of bunkering, these will generally qualify as hazards as they have decent depth to them. I didn't always care for the shaping of them, but they did meet my primary criteria of giving you pause to flirt with them.
    The other hole picture that Joel posted I think is #12 which I could see off in the distance but didn't get down to. It looks to be one of the most interesting holes of the bunch as it heads downhill off the tee and then sweeps left before heading down some more to the green which is just out of sight in the photo.
   #14 par 4 looks like a nice challenge as the tee shot has to carry over a depression in the land before hitting the fairway which heads left up to the green. I was too far away to get a good sense of the distances involved, but apparently #5 is the only short par 4.
   #15 par 3   They were shooting for a redan but didn't quite get it and with the maintenance practices are even further away it appears as there is little chance of being able to get your ball on the slope and using the land. Still it is a daunting hole with the back of the green seeming to fall off into oblivion and deep bunkering protecting the inside of the diagonal the green sits on. There is a really ugly bunker off to the left that does nothing for the hole and I would imagine they will fill it in eventually.
   #16 is a par 4 that plays, you guessed it, straightaway, gradually uphill most of the way and sets up a pretty stern finishing stretch.
    #17 par 4 plays ever so slightly on a diagonal off the tee up into a saddle of sorts and then heads downhill to the green sort of reminiscent of Rustic Canyon #16, but this green is much more receptive to your ball as it feeds down the fairway slopes  and onto the green.
    That is a rough outline of what I saw out there, I look forward to hearing Joel and Tom's thoughts on how it actually plays.
    The front nine is easily walkable, although there were a couple of 100+ yard walks. The back nine goes down to the low point of the property around #12 or 13 apparently and you are coming up the rest of the way to get home.
     The views out onto the bay are very nice and the foggy picture in the first post is the view towards San Francisco I think that without the fog is pretty spectacular. Lots of hawks flying around for those who like birds.
    Overall I think most golfers will enjoy it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 03:23:38 AM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Matt_Cohn

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2007, 03:41:07 AM »
Ed,

The first picture looks like a really intricate design with a lot of eye candy and visual interest. The last picture looks very plain, almost muni golf plain.

Which picture more accurately represents what you saw?

Also, if there's a way to really say this, in your opinion, how good is it? Will it be one of the bay area's best? Or is it maybe on par with Roddy Ranch or Poppy Hills in the east bay?

Even though it will be a private club I think I'd be disappointed if this course turned out just OK.

ed_getka

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2007, 12:12:23 AM »
Matt,
   I really doubt it will be considered one of the best courses in the Bay Area, but that opinion is better rendered by someone who plays it.
   I wonder how old that picture is on top. There are no bunkers on the course that resemble that one in the foreground, but I didn't walk that hole. Apparently the bunker style changed at some point in the project. The archie had one idea, but apparently the construction guys had a different one.
    I think both holes pictured will be interesting to play. The bottom hole plays uphill the rest of the way to the green from about 200 yards off the tee. Note the diagonal slope in the landing area. Also it seems like the bunkering will encourage you to move right off the tee and then back to the left on the second shot.
    As I pointed out the site wasn't the easiest to work with and there are some interesting holes out there, just not enough to compete with some of the better courses in the area.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 12:13:29 AM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2007, 10:49:54 AM »
We did the NCGA course rating yesterday at Stonebrae, and were the first groups to play the back nine, which they say should open to members in mid-October.

First of all, I have to commend Ed Getka (or check his sanity) for attempting to walk and view this course.  The site is VERY severe - pretty similar to Stone Eagle.  Very hilly, particularly the back nine.  This will NOT be a walking golf course.  Front nine is somewhat doable, with only some large green to tee hikes to deal with (as Ed says), but back nine is outrageous.

I couldn't take any pictures - it's not de riguer to do so during the rating process.  I did play the golf course though.  And well....

It's not going to be everyone's cup of tea. Most fairways are wide - wider than they look - but there is death to both sides on nearly every hole.  The bunkers are also very severe.  They're not outrageously deep in general, but all are either now or soon will be covered with thick fescue on the sides, meaning if one gets stuck on the sides it's damn near unplayable drop time.  This will mean something only to course raters, but note we gave the "E" adjustment for bunkers on damn near every hole.  I had never seen that  before.  In any case, while some holes do offer fun strategic decisions to be made, on the whole it's a quite penal golf course.  There are quite a few forced carries also.  Better players may relish the challenge... but rest assured this is a very difficult golf course.  I'll be shocked if our course rating numbers don't bear that out.

That being said, there are some damn good golf holes, and confounding ones as well.   The par fives are interesting - five of them - two shortish, three brutish.  The brutish ones are going to give the bogey golfer absolute fits. The shortish ones are going to make the scratch golfer's score.

One cool thing about the course is this:  the GREENS.  I swear this course really should have had Ed drooling, being the greens aficionado he is.  They are of varied sizes, with lots of internal contour, but nothing crazily over the top.  I thought they were really cool.  And the best part is this:  they say they will never go faster than 9.5, the idea being they keep the speeds sane to make them the most fun given the contours!  I swear I nearly fell off my chair when I heard the pro say that.  Damn refreshing and unique, I'd say.  But I guess given the architect, I shouldn't have been so surprised, as that's the marching order at Bandon.

I can go over specific holes if anyone is interested.  It is a hell of a golf course.  It may win some honors, I don't know.  I kinda think it's gonna shake down like Stone Eagle, where the severity and unwalkability keeps it from the highest honors.  But perhaps not, as there are some damn fine golf holes, and the views from up high are rather spectacular.

TH

ps - the pictures from the site, as posted in this thread, are NOT flattering.  I spent 8 hours there yesterday and for the life of me I can't figure out what the hell the first pic is.  None of the bunkers are like that - all have thick fescue on the sides now, or planted and growing.  The second pick is the short uphill par 5 #4 - a darn interesting hole - but that pic flattens it tremendously - it is very uphill, and the two back tees are way back from where that pic is taken.  It's a darn good golf hole.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 11:13:29 AM by Tom Huckaby »

David_Tepper

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2007, 12:02:45 PM »
Tom H. -

I am very much anti-thick fescue/long grasses on the sides/edges of bunkers. That is my biggest complaint about the "maintenance meld" at the Metropolitan in Oakland. I have seen more than one unplayable lie taken there because of this.

I do not understand why you would want to have a bunker and then keep the grass around the bunker so long that a ball cannot roll into the bunker. It makes no sense to me. In addition, as you note, balls will frequently get hung up in the grass on the slopes of the bunkers and leave you with an extremely award sidehill stance.  

DT

Tom Huckaby

Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2007, 12:07:38 PM »
David:

Then you will HATE Stonebrae.  I really think every single bunker will in the end have this feature, as many do at Metro and Monarch Bay also.

I'm with you - I really don't get the purpose.  The course played decently yesterday, because the grass hadn't grown in yet on a lot of them!  But it's all planted and is all going to be there eventually.

Note a lot of these sides are STEEP.  Unplayable lies will be a serious issue.

TH
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 12:08:28 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Jed Peters

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2007, 12:25:14 AM »
Tom and David:

I've thought of the setting up of a course this way quite a bit (natives and long grasses around the bunkers) and can't figure out if I like it or I don't. My home course (Morgan Creek GCC in Sacramento) is set up that way, and Kyle Phillips wanted the long grasses ALL the way around the bunkers and in larger areas....creating true "hazards" in the form of sand and grass bunkers.

The point of having these, as I see it, is making true "in course" hazards, snaring errant shots or shaping fairways/shots accordingly.

Our super has cut down the fronts of the bunkers creating runways right into them with shortened rough.

Personally, I'm a  fan of the way that Kyle Phillips first designed Morgan Creek, or those "augusta"/St. Andrews style bunkers that are shaved up to the sand from the green or fairway.

Matt_Cohn

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2007, 12:52:15 AM »
Re: the bunkers, it seems simple.

The grass should be short where golf balls can roll into bunkers.

The grass can be long on the periphery of the hole, and where golf balls would not roll into very high grass unless it has rolled through a bunker to get there.

Does anyone disagree?


PS, it's silly that we have to resort to shin-high grass around the bunkers in order to make the bunkers scary, isn't it?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 12:53:27 AM by Matt_Cohn »

Jed Peters

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2007, 12:57:07 AM »
Matt:

Our Super tends to agree with you.

I like the idea of "grass" bunkers as a hazard, however.

To be honest, it just made the course too hard for the members. Only a hard sand wedge will get the ball back to the fairway in many cases.

David_Tepper

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2007, 01:12:03 AM »
Tom, Jed & Matt -

I think a hollow or depression filled with rough-length (or slightly longer) grass is a legitimate GCA feature. I would imagine these grass "bunkers" are fairly inexpensive to build & maintain.

One of the courses I get to play regularly when I am in Scotland has this feature on a number of holes and getting into one of them costs at least 1/2 a shot more often than not. I am surprised more courses in the U.S. do not use this feature.

However, as I wrote above, I simply cannot see the point of having rough so deep surrounding a bunker that it keeps a ball from rolling on to the sand within the bunker or, in the worst case, results in a lost ball or an unplayable lie. I have seen both of the latter happen at the Metro in Oakland.

DT      

MHiserman

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2007, 01:40:28 AM »
Joel,
Please teach me how to insert photos on GCA.  I have some construction photos of Stonebrae in my files, if interested.
In fact, I played the course up to the 14th.  It was mostly sand and under construction.  Where these photos were taken, I could note say except for the large bunker.  And the quality...not good.  again, the construction photos are much better.

This is truly a spectacular course and setting.  The 18th plays as a long par 5 sometimes dead into the daily breeze.
The approach shot gives one aiming points of the Transamerica building, Coit Tower, or the Bay Bridge(Clear Days of course).

I commend this group for getting this course built.  
It took almost 17 years, as I have been told, to get this through the county that it is in.

In construction one could tell this would soon be the most difficult course in the Bay Area from the Championship tee.

I have not seen how the superintendent is conditioning the course but Mr. Huckaby notes how long the fescue is growing in and the proximity to the fairway and bunkering.  Under those conditions get a dozen ball at the turn and post that score for the tournament season.


Let me know and I would love to join you down there.  I have been salavating to there since playing it in the sand.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 01:44:19 AM by Merrill H »
"Whether my schedule for the next day called for a tournament round or a trip to the practice tee, the prospect that there was going to be golf in it made me feel priviledged and extremely happy, and I couldn't wait for the sun to come up the next morning so that I could get on the course"-BH

Tom Huckaby

Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2007, 09:11:28 AM »
It'll be interesting to see if this comes out as the most difficult course in the Bay Area in terms of course rating.  I can say that we came up with some VERY high numbers, and I was in the group that did the front nine back tees.  The way course rating works, it's tough to estimate a final number based on the data we do... or at least it's tough for me... but man I will be surprised if those 7140 tees come out less than 75.0 rating.  Of course that's not enough to be toughest in Bay Area though... but we'll see how it comes out.  One thing's for sure, it is a stern test from those tees.

As for the fescue, it's just on bunker sides/faces.  The rough along the fairways is actually pretty benign.

And it is a spectacular course and setting - a pretty darn great accomplisnment to get built.  Many will enjoy it just for the views.  

I just have to wonder though how many will truly love getting beat up so much... because even from the middle tees there are some stern forced carries, and the bunkers are what they are... we'll see.

TH

John Keenan

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2007, 12:00:31 PM »
Tom

Curious if you know if it will be open to the public or will it be strictly private? I would guess semi-private for a bit to help defer the costs.  

Sadly the opportunity to punish myself and from the description of it loose a fair amount of balls would drive me out there.

John
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2007, 12:02:50 PM »
JK:

Strictly private, without question.  They're going to have golf members and "sports members" - they'd join to use the planned massive fitness center and clubhouse, with limited golf privileges.

I guess it's possible they allow outside play as they ramp up membership, though.  That tends to be a normal thing to do.

TH

Tim Leahy

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Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2007, 12:45:06 PM »
Tom, isn't The Ranch the highest slope rated course in the bay area? I know that the Olympic Club used to be the highest score rated course, but I can't think of anything higher since. I don't count Monterey as bay area.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Stonebrae: New David Kidd course in NorCal
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2007, 12:50:05 PM »
Tim:

The Ranch almost made it, but not quite.  It's 152 from back tees, Mayacama is the champ at 153.

But I was talking course rating... which is a better indicator of raw difficulty, of course.  Oh, I don't doubt the slope will be very high at Stonebrae... the bogey player was getting killed in lots of places as we did the rating... but slope can deceive, which makes sense given what it represents (more or less):  the DIFFERENCE between how hard a course is for the bogey player and how hard it is for the scratch.

For example, the highest course rating in the greater Bay Area is Ruby Hill - 76.7 from the tips.  But the slope from those tees is "only" 138.  

TH

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