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cary lichtenstein

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Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« on: August 16, 2007, 03:23:33 PM »
Wondering how developers of golf courses and gated communities will fare with mortgage money drying up
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2007, 04:11:49 PM »
Great question!  

I wonder how various parts of the country will do. Will areas with second homes do worse?  

Will projects on the drawing board be delayed?  Or will some builders taking advantage of cycles use this period to build while others are cautious.  

As an aside, my wife and I own a piece of property that we had been planning on building a home.  When the property was purchased a moderate home was in the neighborhood of $150/sq.ft.  We figured a 2250 square foot home to be about $350,000.  One year after we purchased the dirt, the building costs had gone to $250/sq.ft.  Making the same home $200,000 more expensive.  

That kind of boom in the construction and home building business was bound to slow things down.  Now that builders are begining to look for work, it may be time to think about taking advantage.  I wonder if course developers with access to cash wouldn't be thinking the same thing.  

"Don't you see, Potter is buying while you're all panicking." George Bailey

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2007, 04:18:45 PM »
I think this thing can correct itself with less TV news shows....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2007, 04:27:54 PM »
Getting a house financed will be harder. Which means developers will find it harder to sell lots and homes. Which means that the cash flow projections that developers and their banks have counted on are now probably way off the mark.

All that means - as far as I can tell - less money available for new golf developments.

That won't bother someone with unlimited capital resources like a Mike Keiser. But he's an exception.

Bob

 

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2007, 04:36:08 PM »
It will definitely have a huge impact in the short term as real-estate backed securities have absolutely no buyers right now. And that is how vast majority of development deals are financed.

In the long-term, course building will certainly slow in US as next couple of years look very dicey right now. If the project (especially those with big "community" aspect) is not alread in the pipeline and financed, it is unlikely to get started within that time.

I am glad as hopefully this event will bring back some sanity to real-estate prices. Some of the housing prices I have seen on golf magazine golf-course community advertisements were just outrageous.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2007, 04:37:34 PM »
I think it's awesome, actually.  If it brings to an end the era of the "McMansion", it's good by me.

As far as golf goes, it could also be a good thing short term.  The market is probably overbuilt today, and a slowdown would help.

Just my opinion..

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2007, 04:38:32 PM »
The subprime crisis is simply the latest in a long series of events that have hurt homebuilding over the past few years.  The sharp construction cost increases, as noted above, were paid by many buyers, a large portion of which could not afford the homes they were purchasing.  Hence, the sub-prime mortgage market flourished, along with interest only loans, negative amortization, and 50 year amortization loans, amongst other products.  The sub-prime meltdown seems to me simply a reaction to the fact that homes were being built that could not be afforded by the intended buyer.

As a shopping center developer, I can say that the reduced housing grwoth has clearly delayed shopping center developments in high population growth regions.  Two years ago, tenants were bullish and population was growing, and all of those houses were going to be sold and occupied by the time the shopping center approvals and construction were complete.  Now, that growth is in question, and it is in-fill locations that are in favor , with their stable population.

I would think that the overall slowdown in the housing market must have a dampening effect on any golf course development that is tied to residential development.  If the residential grow is not there, the course won't be developed, and I would think that in almost all cases, the course is an amenity to sell lots, not intended to make enough money to provide a fair return for the cost of its development.

And yes, most of this is self-fulfilling, and if the news told us that times were good, e.g. effective full employement, much of this crisis would vanish.
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2007, 04:48:12 PM »
Powell,
You make a thougtful post.  Thanks..

Shopping centers here in Chester County, PA may be indicative of the whole mess.  10 year old centers in very good locations have 50% vacancy, but new centers keep popping up.  

The ones I can't understand around here are the huge numbers of new banks.  I haven't set foot in a bank for 2+ years!

To me, this mimics golf in a way.  We have clubs in Berks County in deep trouble and a new course like Ledgerock pops up.  So Berkleigh and Moselem go searching for members while Ledgerock operates as an equity club with about 95 members on a Rees Jones designed course.  I just don't get it - why build new when good quality is locally available at less cost.

This from somebody that's been in his home since 2 months after I moved to Pennsylvania in 1994.  I guess I'm in the minority if you look at all the Toll Brothers McMansions around here.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2007, 04:49:32 PM »
I'm with Dan on this...the real estate market was too hot and a correction like this will open a lot of doors.
Project 2025....All bow down to our new authoritarian government.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2007, 04:51:10 PM »
The market is and was out of control It needs to settle back to rational growth.

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2007, 04:54:16 PM »
Powell,
You make a thougtful post.  Thanks..

Shopping centers here in Chester County, PA may be indicative of the whole mess.  10 year old centers in very good locations have 50% vacancy, but new centers keep popping up.  

The ones I can't understand around here are the huge numbers of new banks.  I haven't set foot in a bank for 2+ years!

To me, this mimics golf in a way.  We have clubs in Berks County in deep trouble and a new course like Ledgerock pops up.  So Berkleigh and Moselem go searching for members while Ledgerock operates as an equity club with about 95 members on a Rees Jones designed course.  I just don't get it - why build new when good quality is locally available at less cost.

This from somebody that's been in his home since 2 months after I moved to Pennsylvania in 1994.  I guess I'm in the minority if you look at all the Toll Brothers McMansions around here.

And we're actually in a very stable area here in SE Pennsylvania, as contrasted to Las Vegas, Phoenix, northern Virginia, for example.  

And 95 members at Ledgerock speaks volumes.  (not to mention, it's impossible to identify their target customer, as has been discussed before)
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2007, 04:56:43 PM »
Lotsa people get hurt when the housing market suffers.

Lotsa people get hurt when any significant segment of the economy suffers.

The far ranging consequences go well beyond seeing a few large homes go by the wayside. In fact, if anything, those people suffer one helluva lot less than the little guys out there.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2007, 06:00:48 PM »
George, anytime there is an over inflated market of any kind, you will have people getting rich and eventually people getting hurt...but if the real estate crashes and land prices fall and home prices fall, it will bring opportunity for new people...
Project 2025....All bow down to our new authoritarian government.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2007, 06:21:49 PM »
For a very interesting story about a guy who got whacked by the subprime crisis, read http://tinyurl.com/2qott8

Note the average salary of the top 25 hedge fund managers (8th paragraph). It's also interesting that Harvard lost $350 million in a few weeks but that doesn't even warrant a mention until the end of the article. George is right . . . the rich will do fine, its the average guy who is going to see the biggest impact.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 06:22:27 PM by Dan_Callahan »

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2007, 06:59:08 PM »
Nice article Dan. I just love reading about how these "low-risk" funds manage to lose billions of dollars in matter of days. :)

Let me see if I can put this in terms that we can all understand :)

These fund managers do not play stroke or match play like everyone else. They play special "modified" stableford scoring games where they get rewarded for birdies (and HUGELY rewarded for eagles), but bogies only count against their partners and sponsors. Hence, they go for the flag no matter what. Even when hazards are hidden and there are sucker pins abound.

And once the partners and sponsor cry uncle, they just move on to a new tournament with new partners and sponsors.

It's a good life if you can get it.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 07:00:03 PM by Richard Choi »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2007, 07:51:09 PM »
Richard,

If it were that easy we'd all do it...

But, the stableford analogy is the best I've heard for the comensation ...

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2007, 09:12:11 PM »
Powell,
You make a thougtful post.  Thanks..

Shopping centers here in Chester County, PA may be indicative of the whole mess.  10 year old centers in very good locations have 50% vacancy, but new centers keep popping up.  

The ones I can't understand around here are the huge numbers of new banks.  I haven't set foot in a bank for 2+ years!

To me, this mimics golf in a way.  We have clubs in Berks County in deep trouble and a new course like Ledgerock pops up.  So Berkleigh and Moselem go searching for members while Ledgerock operates as an equity club with about 95 members on a Rees Jones designed course.  I just don't get it - why build new when good quality is locally available at less cost.

This from somebody that's been in his home since 2 months after I moved to Pennsylvania in 1994.  I guess I'm in the minority if you look at all the Toll Brothers McMansions around here.

Dan, where do you live exactly again?  I think you might have told me once, but I forget.  My inlaws in the Reading area live near the Wyomissing Mall, near Wilson High School.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Michael Christensen

Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2007, 09:18:50 PM »
seeing I do a little business in this area, all that is going on is a correction...too many people were taking on too much risk....there shouldn't have been that many no-doc loans given.....I have no problem seeing these risk takers take it in the rear...and if you were stupid enough to take out a no-interest loan or an ARM, you deserve what you get....

too many people in this country are/were living by their shoe-strings...sometimes those shoe-strings break


Wayne_Kozun

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Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2007, 09:47:16 PM »
Note the average salary of the top 25 hedge fund managers (8th paragraph). It's also interesting that Harvard lost $350 million in a few weeks but that doesn't even warrant a mention until the end of the article. George is right . . . the rich will do fine, its the average guy who is going to see the biggest impact.
You can't make a return without taking risk - so Harvard lost $350M - their portfolio is about $30 billion so that is a loss of about 1.1% of their portfolio.  They have managed to outperform pretty much every institutional investor and even post positive returns in the stretch from 2000-2002 when so many institutions had negative returns.

They are the best at what they do and many of their internal managers, including this fellow, left to start their own hedge funds.

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2007, 11:15:39 PM »
Community development financing starting getting tougher earlier in the year as home sales were slowing.  This may be the nail in the coffin, but is by no means the instigator.

Dennis_Harwood

Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2007, 11:24:08 PM »
In the long term, however, people with less money spend more time at home instead of on golf courses and the like (and if they are unemployed, a lot more time at home), and when at home they, well...do those things that they do at home--

Hence, more people which in turn requires more homes, which in turn means more golf courses--

Its a cyclical thing--like global warming.

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2007, 12:03:52 AM »
The first time buyer is now probably out of the market. Where will he go? Into the first affordable apartment he can rent. Where on earth would you as an investor go? Obviously into a REIT that concentrates on nothing but apartments.

A couple come to mind.

Bob

Jim Nugent

Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2007, 01:08:43 AM »

And yes, most of this is self-fulfilling, and if the news told us that times were good, e.g. effective full employement, much of this crisis would vanish.

This I can't see.  Banks and others gave mortgages to people who never should have qualified for them.  No matter how good the news is, those people cannot pay back the billions they borrowed.  

Tip of the iceberg, too.  

Steve Lapper

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Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2007, 07:10:14 AM »
Bringing this back to golf, it is very important to note that the "subprime crisis" has morphed into a massive re-pricing of credit risk throughout the debt leverage chain and will indeed have some immediate ramifications for the golf industry.

Financing for new projects will now likely face lower LTVs coupled with higher rates and no doubt, no decrease in fees. All of this, combined with the relatively static nature of the game will combine to effectively deter many, many risk-based golf developments. The yen carry trade, if continued to be unwound, will have a dramatic effect on the high-yield market and it is that market that has traditionally financed the aggregate purchases of groups of existing courses and will near stifle the bank-led financing for construction of new foreign golf resort developments. Yes, deep-pocketed individuals will surely go ahead and complete many of their dream projects, but the institutional market will likely face a severe tightening especially now that the selling & absorption curves of adjacent RE has slowed so considerably. Existing projects, with financing already obtained and intact, will survive their build-out, but I'd be hard pressed not to see a recession-like effect on many new, Phase I-like plans.

This credit crisis will also effect many others inside the golf food chain as historically, quite a few golf-related businesses have been reliant on the equity and debt markets and are hardly AAA credit risks (although given the rating agencies ability to ignore blatant risk might not stop them from issuing pristine ratings just for the cash fee?). Keep in mind that severe dislocations and re-pricing of risk in our equity and private debt markets ALWAYS has very real effects on industries that are marginally profitable, seasonal, and capital-intensive.

Forget the alt-a/subprime mortgage issue for the moment (although the peak of trouble won't come until late Spring 2008), and instead focus on the disruption of the liquidity process as it is a far graver concern for all reaches of debt-based businesses. This seizing up of the short-term debt (commercial paper, etc) markets can kill otherwise healthy business just based on the perception, not reality of problems thus creating even more risk for cash-needy enterprises.

Richard Choi gave a marvelous golf related analogy for the behavior and role of many fund managers who are in immediate trouble, but don't forget that they've (and their investors)been a large part of the luxury market hit parade for the past 5 years and now they are likely to spread a contraction much further down the food chain of consumers, right down to the prime golfing demographic.

Bob Huntley...be careful with the Apt REITs..they are already very fully priced and trade at very low cap rate related prices, thus not quite as defensive a play going forward as they might have been 6-8 mos ago.

Too many very decent Americans will suffer sever contractions and will get their "dose of reality" with too much pain. I really hope, for everyone whose lives are so impacted by this credit crisis, that the Fed and the government don't mislead them into believing that it is a non-event and that "everything is alright." Golf is still little more than a luxury of life and so very unimportant relative to the fate of those people who play it. Sorry to seem so alarmed, but I believe this isn't just a "blip" this time.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Rob_Waldron

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Re:Subprime Crisis: Will this stop golf course construction?
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2007, 08:21:21 AM »
The ability to develop and sell out a development community quickly is the key to profitability. Since a significant amount of money is spent up front for infrastructure and amenities including golf courses developers depend on a high velocity sell through. The implication of mortgage rates and tighter lending qulaifications is a decrease in new home sales. If the homes sales slow they are stuck subsidizing the golf course operation.

I am seeing more developers looking to recapture their golf course investment ealier in the process in order to lessen operating subsidies.

Steve has hit the nail on the head in that the entire lending industry is tightening. Lenders are requiring more equity in deals. Higher rates translate into larger monthly mortgage payments and lower cash flow. Marginal deals cannot be financed. New course construction may be put on hold for a while.