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Dustin Knight

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Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« on: August 17, 2007, 03:29:13 AM »
    Are the USGA on drugs????

Yes I am a biased Aussie but can anyone explain why we have world amatuer rankings if they mean diddly squat when it comes to the U.S Am???? I am sitting here having friday night beers after a round of golf with my best mate who is currently inside the top 40 on GW's Amatuer rankings and we have been discussing why the hell he is here and not getting ready for the U.S Am at Olympic next week :o :o :o!!!

Tim Stewart (36 on GW'S Rankings)
Rohan Blizzard (63 on GW's Rankings)
Mark Foster (Rice Planters Champion 07)

All of these guy can't get an exemption to the U.S Am yet Drew Weaver (British Am Champ and 38 GW's Ranking) is exempt and gets a start at the Masters next year?????
How does that work????? No dissrespect intended to those who are playing as they have earnt the spot but why have rankings if they mean nothing??????? imagine Retief Goosen/Angel Cabrera/David Toms not playing the U.S Open in 2008 because they didnt qualify?????

Sorry for ranting but i feel this a subject worth explanation!

Isnt the U.S Am the pinnacle of World Amatuer golf!?????

If guys inside the top 50 in the world cannot play how can you claim to be the best Amatuer tourney in the world!!!!

Maybe it should be renamed The U.S Invitational Amatuer!

Food for thought gents!
Lost Farm........ WOW!

Brian_Ewen

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Rich Goodale

Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2007, 04:27:30 AM »
Dustin

Ranking of golf amateurs on a world-wide basis is almost complete guesswork, in that most play is local/national rather than global, form changes dramatically on a monthly basis as players mature, and there are no venues where you get any sort of quorum of the top players (including the US and British Amateur).

The US Am. is open to anybody with a handicap of 2.4 that has the commitment and the resources to play in a qualifying event a few weeks before the tournament.  There are only 30 or so exemptions, and none of those, unfortunately for your pals, extends to any world "ranking" or to winners of the Rice Planters Championship.  But they probably knew that already.  I'm surprised that the Australian Institute of Sport (or whomever) didn't send your pals over to try to qualify. Those sort of comps are legal today.

Get over it. ;)

Rich

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2007, 05:13:04 AM »
Dustin,

IMO, exemptions aren't in the best interest of amateur golf.

There should be NO right of entitlement to gain entry with the exception of the former champion.

All golfers should have to PLAY their way into the tournament.

Exemptions, especially as they're expanded, stifle and stagnate the competition.

Eternal vigilance is the price of greatness.

If you can't play your way in, you don't deserve to be in.

Dustin Knight

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2007, 06:04:52 AM »
Patrick/Richard

My arguement is that the guys who perform well over the northen summer should be eligible, i'm not suggesting that guys who flushed it in 06 be granted exemptions but I do believe those who consistantly played well over the last 12 wks should be competing, at the very least the British Am runner up should be in the field!! could you imagine if the U.S Am runner up was not exempt at the 08 British Am :o

My friend had 6 under par at his pre-q event and missed out yet guys who shot 2 over elsewhere got straight in. I know par is just a number but I do believe the inform players should be competing for amatuer golfs biggest prize. I personally know the 03 champion as i tought him how to chip n putt as a 15yr old. I just feel strongly that those who do play well internationally should be given a chance to compete when there are some guys who had a freak day and made it yet will struggle to break 90 at olympic next week.

ok rankings don't count, but results should, either way the British Am runner up definately should be there!!! I bet if it was Drew Weaver who finished second he would be exempt.

Not that it will matter in the end as Rick Kulacz will be bringin that trophy back here in a fortnight anyway ;D ;D
Lost Farm........ WOW!

TEPaul

Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2007, 06:07:55 AM »
Patrick, I don't agree with you often but I sure do on that last post and about 110%. Particularly on this;

'Exemptions, especially as they're expanded, stifle and stagnate the competition.'

Some of these young amateurs (who may be waiting to turn pro) seem to think they have the same kind of entitlement in amateur golf that the tour pros do on their tours.

When it comes to actual exemptions what kind of logic does it take anyway to try to analogize a player who wins the Rice Planters to a player who wins the British Amateur?

On the other hand, it sounds to me like there's a pretty good dose of national pride at work here (with Dustin Knight and his mates). Historically in international amateur golf that is a very good thing. It can only serve to better motivate players anywhere, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 06:13:35 AM by TEPaul »

Rich Goodale

Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2007, 06:28:04 AM »
Thanks, Justin

Passionate arguments, but not really relevant to the reality of amateur golf these days.  IMHO.

Rich

PS--Drew Weaver would not have been exempt for the US Am. if he had failed to stuff that Aussie in the final at the British.  The list of exemptions is very specific, and well known to all competitors.  Maybe you play favo(u)rites in Oz vis a vis these things, but it's not done in the US, unless your name is Arnold Palmer...... ;)
.

Dustin Knight

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2007, 06:28:46 AM »
gents,

I guess the main point to my argument is that the the british am runner up should be in the field, if the U.S Am is the biggest prize in amatuer golf, then the british am is #2. I just dont see how the british am runner up should be in AUS playing the saturday comp at his home club (monash in Sydney) this wkend instead of playing olympic. take note that two of these guys are Australian amatuer champions of 06'/07'.

Rice planters i agree with you guys, that was just to try and state my point. But 07 British am runner up and 07' Aus Am champ??  

Patrick,

Does that mean that u feel this years U.S am runner up should not be exempt next year yet he is invited to the masters in april?????  :o
Lost Farm........ WOW!

Dustin Knight

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2007, 06:37:05 AM »
Rich,

Yes i don't appologise for playing fav sometimes and yes they knew the criteria before spending nearly 20k on travelling the last 12wks but regardless of where the player is from i do believe the british am finalists have earnt the right to play..
Lost Farm........ WOW!

TEPaul

Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2007, 06:45:13 AM »
Dustin:

I wonder if the US Amateur runner-up is exempt into the British Amateur.

As for a guy who didn't sit at home and complain about this kind of thing----who instead went through the entire qualifying process (I think he flew over here and qualified, flew home and came back) I don't think there could be a better example than former US Amateur champion Eduardo Molinari. His last shot in on site qualifying at Merion was even a holed bunker shot to make match play by one shot.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2007, 06:45:46 AM »
Patrick/Richard

My arguement is that the guys who perform well over the northen summer should be eligible, i'm not suggesting that guys who flushed it in 06 be granted exemptions but I do believe those who consistantly played well over the last 12 wks should be competing, at the very least the British Am runner up should be in the field!! could you imagine if the U.S Am runner up was not exempt at the 08 British Am :o

My friend had 6 under par at his pre-q event and missed out yet guys who shot 2 over elsewhere got straight in. I know par is just a number but I do believe the inform players should be competing for amatuer golfs biggest prize. I personally know the 03 champion as i tought him how to chip n putt as a 15yr old. I just feel strongly that those who do play well internationally should be given a chance to compete when there are some guys who had a freak day and made it yet will struggle to break 90 at olympic next week.

ok rankings don't count, but results should, either way the British Am runner up definately should be there!!! I bet if it was Drew Weaver who finished second he would be exempt.

Not that it will matter in the end as Rick Kulacz will be bringin that trophy back here in a fortnight anyway ;D ;D

Dustin,

I don't think that you're looking at this at "arms length", as an independent outsider with NO vested interest, and as such, you have an interest, an agenda.

One has to detach themselves from personal involvement and look at what is good for the game.

As to the Masters, historically, the quarterfinalists were ALL invited to the Masters.  That was changed years ago.

Over the last two or three generations golf has transitioned from focus on the Amateur game to the PGA Tour game, and as such, granting exemptions into the Masters has changed.

Inviting the winner or the winner and runner-up is fine with me due to the historical significance of Amateur Golf, Bobby Jones, ANGC and The Masters.

Getting back to your desire to see more exemptions, I couldn't disagree more, especially when playing records are often compiled in invitation ONLY events, thus skewing the playing field.

To me, it's quite simple.
You send your entry in.
You tee it up in the qualifier
And, you either play your way in or wait until next year.

Exemptions stifle and stagnate competitions when granted generously.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2007, 07:00:13 AM »
TEPaul,

When you analzye many of the amateur ratings you realize the influence exerted by "invitation only" events.

Years ago I wrote to "Golfweek" when they were rating amateur golfers, juniors, seniors, etc., etc..

I proposed that the rankings be based solely on events open to all players, such as regional competitions (GAP and MGA) State competitions, (NY, NJ, etc., etc..) and National competitons (USGA) and any other competitions NOT dependent upon a special invitation.

My reason for making my proposal was that I saw guys ranked ahead of other players who would clean their clock nine times out of ten, but, the lower ranked players weren't in "THE" loop when it came to invitationals.

Dustin doesn't seem to see or understand what happens when everybody pleads their case as to why they're deserving of an exemption, and the impact on the event.
It becomes inbred.

I was on the USGA Mid-Amateur committee from the inception and fought against increasing the number of exemptions and extending the number of qualifying rounds.  My efforts included a letter to the Executive Committee, stating my position, which I believe was well received.

Just think, back in 1966 or 1967 had there been more exemptions, Lee Trevino might never had made his mark.

He played his way into the U.S. Open and the History Books.

Eternal vigilance is the price of greatness.

Play your way in.

That's one of the great features of golf, we're all equal on the first tee.

But, increased exemptions leave fewer spaces for qualifiers.

Someone NOT in the loop shouldn't have their chances of making it to the big dance diminished because special interest groups prevailed.

Tee it up, post your score and await your fate.
And then, live with it like a man.
No WHINING ALLOWED.

Dustin Knight

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2007, 07:13:20 AM »
Patrick,

I do agree with you in regards to handing out exemptions left right and centre, but if the walker cup guys are exempt and can't make the final of the british am why should they be exempt over any one else. Full credit to those who do qualify as there are two guys in particular who are from Aus who travelled all the way and earnt they're spot.

In no way am I trying to have a dig at those who "paid the cash and pre-q'd" but surely common sense to some extent should prevail. US Am finalists for the ast 5 years are exempt. Why not British am finalists from 10 weeks ago. Next year it could be an American that cannot play in his national championship for the same reason. How can the british am be the #2 amatuer championship in the world if guys decide not to play as they would be better off staying in the states and preparing to pre-q for the US Am. Seems to me that in 10-15 years time we will get to the stage where all tournaments outside America will be meaningless. Just look at the WGC events. World golf championships my arse :o USA dash for cash more like it.
Would hate to see the amatuer game go the same way!!  
Lost Farm........ WOW!

JohnV

Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2007, 08:37:45 AM »
The US Amateur exempts very few players.  Approximately 20-25 players out of 312 are exempt this year.  Compare that to 90-100 out of the 156 at the US Open or the Open.

While the USGA says that they may give special exemptions I am unaware of any in the last few years.  Aaron Baddeley might have gotten one after he won the Aussie Open as an amateur.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2007, 08:56:36 AM »
With international qualifying coming on for both Opens, I wonder how long before something similar for the US Am...considering the recent list of international winners I am sure it must be worthy of consideration...

What could be wrong with having 5 or 10 spots through qualifying alotted to the Australian contingent?

John Kavanaugh

Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2007, 09:07:22 AM »
One of the things that confuses me about the mission of Golfweek is that they rank golf courses for the mid-handicap player then do the very best job of covering top amatuer golf and the tournaments played.  I think it spreads their intent and demographic a bit thin.

Hold it, I just realized that Digest ranks courses for the better player while trying to cure your banana ball.

What is the demographic for the top amatuer rankings....500 people including grandparents.

Jim Nugent

Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2007, 09:24:06 AM »
I agree with Rich.  The idea that we can compare amateur golfers around the world seems a bit crazy.  

Wait a minute.  How can we compare golf courses??  

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2007, 09:24:25 AM »
Dustin,

That's just how the USGA operates.

If you think it's a weird system for the US Am, try the US Junior, where I think 4 players were exempt this year despite the existence of several very good ranking systems.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Golf Week World Amatuer Rankings??
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2007, 09:25:55 AM »
How do you get junior golfers to stop cheating, or start counting?

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