News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Brent Hutto

Re:Discounts for fast players
« Reply #150 on: August 09, 2007, 11:16:11 AM »
as a public course player, I've always imagined that private courses were a paradise of timely play, and that rounds there are almost always completed in 4 hours at the most....because the skill level across the board was generally higher, because there were measures/policies in place that all the golfers knew about to keep the play moving, and because members had to see eachother often and so there was 'social pressure' that mitigated slow play.  

I played for ten years entirely at public/semi-private courses and have since been a member at two private ones. Overall I'd say there is a slight pace-of-play improvement at the privates but course-to-course variation in how the course is laid out has a much greater effect on pace. My first private club had a 90's-vintage housing development course that was hilly, slow to walk and not particularly fast to play with a cart. Lots of cart-path-only days due to clay soil. Weekend pace of play was very similar to the public course I learned to play on because the public one (which did 4-5 times as many rounds easily) was built in the middle of nowhere in the 70's and very compactly laid out.

My current club has a 60's Ellis Maples layout that is ideal for walking and with a pretty good flow to the entire facility (BTW, I believe the amount of wandering around the parking lot, clubhouse, etc. before and after the round sets the expectation for pace of play in a major way) and our pace of play is similar to your expetations. Other than the very busiest times of peak days you can generally finish in four hours. During the winter it's 3:15-3:30 for threesomes and maybe 3:45 for foursomes. This time of year the course is generally packed and anywhere from 3:45 to maybe 4:10 is typical.

My club has no "measures/policies" relating to pace of play. Simply informal peer pressure to not hold up the other folks who you're going to be sharing the club with for the next few years. As at all courses in my experience, any sort of organized competition or event brings with it a glacial slowdown in the pace of play. I don't know if peer pressure is somehow suspended on "tournament" days or if it's the universal cart-use requirements that typically accompany those occasions but there's no such thing as a sub-5:00 round during a "Couples Tournament" or "Labor Day Scramble", not to mention the Club Championship where everyone turns into Jack Nicklaus.

Fortunately, we have 27 holes and none of the three nines is considered undesirable. So there's usually a way to avoid the backup if one chooses not to participate in this month's hit and giggle. Finally, there are probably fewer raw beginners at a private club than a public one so in that sense the quality of play is better at the low end. But I don't think the possible larger number of plus-handicap sticks at a good-player's club results in any net gain in pace of play. In my experience the +2 guys aren't necessarily faster than the 6-handicappers so the only difference that factor makes is if your Sunday afternoon round avoids the hordes of "first time ever" golfers that descend on some public courses.

Peter Pallotta

Re:Discounts for fast players
« Reply #151 on: August 09, 2007, 12:33:29 PM »
Brent, A.G., Garland
Thanks much for the helpful responses. I'm glad to hear that my assumption was basically correct, although I'm not sure why that should make me happy:)

Peter

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Discounts for fast players
« Reply #152 on: August 09, 2007, 01:08:04 PM »
Those who suggest that typically the ownership/management of the higher end public/resort courses simply do not care about the pace of play may be over generalizing the problem.

We operate at the highest end of the fee spectrum and remain relatively busy most of the year. Is it tough to tell someone who has paid $350 to skip a hole (Or two) or worst case leave the course?... sure is but it is inevitable. It is unfortunately almost a daily occurrence.

Does it cause a problem with the offending group? More often than not yes... does not help being in Mexico where I am convinced some act in a manner they would never even consider at home. At the end of the day you offer to bring them back at a time that will allow them to play golf without affecting the experience of others. If this is not possible for whatever reason then you chalk it up to doing the right thing and hope the group honestly understands. Some calm down and come back later and some choose to recite their résumé in an effort to back you down and get their money back (not advisable to instruct that they send it to the secretary rather than offer it verbally!)... "do you know who I am?" I implore anyone to please refrain from using this when "negotiating". Getting what you want through being polite and courteous works both ways.

As for offering inducements... does not work, adds to the need for on course "observers" and leads to conflict. "Give me my coupon... if it weren't for that &/%&/%$%! we would have finished in 2 hours and your marshal did nothing about it"

Only way to handle the issue:

Set Expectation
Present Consequences
Assist Guests
Enforce Policy

1. Set the target pace slightly beyond what you truly expect (If you believe 4:15 is acceptable set the target for 3:45 or 4 hours)

2. Clearly state the actions to be taken (Either verbally by the Tee Captian or in printout provided to all guests)
>Out of position holes 1-3 warning and under observaiotn
>Out of position holes 4-18 Pick up and reagin position
>Second instance of losing position = possible removal (not concrete... is group behind still on internal pace? hoe far behind are offenders?...)

3. Pace of play tips... After the "threat" (perception is reality) Offer advice that will HELP the group avoid such a fate... The single biggest issue are carts and the manner in which people play when in carts...
>"Please do not sit in the cart while your cartmate plays a shot... as soon as they have hit you should be ready to play"

4. Enforcement... Enforce your INTERNAL policies, remember we are telling the guests that they should finish a bit sooner than we truly expect.

Sure the stated expectation not matching the internal policy creates issues... but they are more readily manageable than the alternatives.

For the record this IS labor intensive and we will have as many as 5 marshals over the course of a day on each course requiring a marshal staff of nearly 40 individuals.

That said there are no guarantees in the world of public/resort golf... there are occasional days when pace is off significantly. You can only control so much.  



Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Discounts for fast players
« Reply #153 on: August 09, 2007, 01:30:23 PM »
...
As for offering inducements... does not work, adds to the need for on course "observers" and leads to conflict. "Give me my coupon... if it weren't for that &/%&/%$%! we would have finished in 2 hours and your marshal did nothing about it"
...

I truly don't see how my coupon idea would work with resorts. See Shivas' suggestion for them. Besides, in my scenario, the people having to wait would already have their coupon in hand and not have to curse at you.

5 marshals per course?  ??? Either they are not paid much, or the green fee is high enough to cover their expense, and the maintenance expense. I doubt I would want to pay green fees that are supporting 5 marshals. But then, I live in paradise and don't have to travel to see you.  ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Discounts for fast players
« Reply #154 on: August 09, 2007, 02:28:08 PM »
...
As for offering inducements... does not work, adds to the need for on course "observers" and leads to conflict. "Give me my coupon... if it weren't for that &/%&/%$%! we would have finished in 2 hours and your marshal did nothing about it"
...

I truly don't see how my coupon idea would work with resorts. See Shivas' suggestion for them. Besides, in my scenario, the people having to wait would already have their coupon in hand and not have to curse at you.

5 marshals per course?  ??? Either they are not paid much, or the green fee is high enough to cover their expense, and the maintenance expense. I doubt I would want to pay green fees that are supporting 5 marshals. But then, I live in paradise and don't have to travel to see you.  ;D

Garland... no American IRS down here... marshals work in exchange for playing privileges... the old fashoined way.

Without calling any ideas gimicks I have yet to find a system that works better than informing, assisting and enforcing. The only factor that can derail this is commitment.


Matt_Ward

Re:Discounts for fast players
« Reply #155 on: August 10, 2007, 10:20:22 AM »
Greg:

You hit the nail squarely on the head -- since your program is labor intensive most facilities will avoid it.

Slow play is simply a talking point to them. The only way to change that is for golfers to demand a proactive response and failing that to solicit other courses that take it seriously.

I have seen public facilities that will harp on women and junior players about slow play but rarely, if ever, take to task the "regulars" who are the more consistent and long term violators. Better to take on the "un-connected" than to really make larger strides against the more serious problem persons.

Greg, I have played a wide smattering of courses around the globe -- and there are VERY FEW courses that implement a 24/7 plan to deal with slow play -- that's particularly true here in the States.

People who plunk down serious $$ to play are left to their own devices regarding how fast or slow they play. Management in those instances -- and in a host of others -- take the belief that intruding on high spenders is not the way to build good will with them. Of course, in doing nothing with the primary offenders the rest of the folks who do want to play faster is ignored.

As I said previously, when groups complain about slow play to management they are then offered -- not always mind you -- some inducement to "ease the pain" from the situation they faced. In some instances it's another comp round or other freebie to quiet the nerves.

The sad reality is that this option doesn't really deal with the issue at-hand.

Slow play is killing golf but management at the vast preponderance of courses do very little beyond post signs or have some retired former cop or military guy barking but never truly biting the real offenders.

Only if management runs the aslyum will the inmates be kept in check. Until that happens the future of the game certainly looks very cloudy for the vast number of players who would enjoy the game even more so if it could be speeded up.




Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Discounts for fast players
« Reply #156 on: August 11, 2007, 11:56:31 PM »
Greg:

You hit the nail squarely on the head -- since your program is labor intensive most facilities will avoid it.

Slow play is simply a talking point to them. The only way to change that is for golfers to demand a proactive response and failing that to solicit other courses that take it seriously.

I have seen public facilities that will harp on women and junior players about slow play but rarely, if ever, take to task the "regulars" who are the more consistent and long term violators. Better to take on the "un-connected" than to really make larger strides against the more serious problem persons.

Greg, I have played a wide smattering of courses around the globe -- and there are VERY FEW courses that implement a 24/7 plan to deal with slow play -- that's particularly true here in the States.

People who plunk down serious $$ to play are left to their own devices regarding how fast or slow they play. Management in those instances -- and in a host of others -- take the belief that intruding on high spenders is not the way to build good will with them. Of course, in doing nothing with the primary offenders the rest of the folks who do want to play faster is ignored.

As I said previously, when groups complain about slow play to management they are then offered -- not always mind you -- some inducement to "ease the pain" from the situation they faced. In some instances it's another comp round or other freebie to quiet the nerves.

The sad reality is that this option doesn't really deal with the issue at-hand.

Slow play is killing golf but management at the vast preponderance of courses do very little beyond post signs or have some retired former cop or military guy barking but never truly biting the real offenders.

Only if management runs the aslyum will the inmates be kept in check. Until that happens the future of the game certainly looks very cloudy for the vast number of players who would enjoy the game even more so if it could be speeded up.





Matt,  You have correctly identified all of the perceived issues relating to dealing with slow play, particularly at a high fee facility.

Best case is bite the bullett and take it head on. Chance of offending someone is certainly real but looking out for the greater good is the only way to do it. If they have been infromed of the policy and have been assisted in avoiding being moved or removed by a courteous staff then most will accept the result. Some will be maniacs... same guys that would try to get something for nothing anyway, they are out there.

Keep up
Skill level should not prohibit you from playing at the required pace
We will try to be there to help if you show signs of falling behind
We will move you if you cannot keep pace
Our interest is providing you and the other XXX guests playing here today a great golf experience and a big part of that is playing in 4 hours (ours is slightly higher :'()


Jim Johnson

Re:Discounts for fast players
« Reply #157 on: August 12, 2007, 02:47:47 AM »
Can anyone pull up the old threads about "Fast Play Tuesday" that Pete Galea came up with? It was eventually written up in PGA Magazine.

Bump.

JJ

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back