[Sean Leary]

TH,

So you want a big flat open field with no bunkers water rough etc.

No wonder you loved the sheep ranch

What about TOC with all the gorse and out of bounds right?

[Tom Huckaby]

Now Sean, let's not jump to silly extremes.

TOC has OB right, and most of the gorse is out of bounds.  The bunkers are penal for sure, but one doesn't lose a ball in them nor does he hae t fruitlessly search.  It's extremely fun in its own very unique way - and you know this -or you should anyway.  

I just don't get how playing defensively on darn near every shot... searching for golf balls on every bad shot... how that can equate to "tons  of fun?"  Fun, yes.  Tons of fun?  I guess if one is in the mood for that kinda golf.  To me that gets old very quickly.

But to each his own.  Meeting a relentless challenge is more what the game is about to plenty of golfers.  Those are the ones who prefer Shinnecock to NGLA.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with this - the game is of course nothing without challenge -but it's just not what drives me MOST about the playing.

TH

[rjsimper]

When did I ever say I played defensively on every shot?  

Even when running a 3 on 1 fast break, you must be careful not to throw the ball to a defender or out of bounds.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ryan:

Where did I say that you said you played defensively on every shot?

One of the great things about a 3 on 1 fast break is that if one has the balls and the skill, he can just take it to the rack and dunk in the defenders face.

I don't see much chance to do the analagous golf thing at Prairie Dunes - to me it seems like NOTHING BUT cautious dishing it off and laying it in a la George Mikan.

And a little of that goes a long way.

At least for me.  I never knew you were so cautious.  The guy I saw bombing a driver over Lake Simper, or cutting across the ocean at Sheep Ranch, surely seemed to be enjoying himself as much as a man can playing this game.

But maybe I assessed that Ryan Simper incorrectly.  
 

[Sean Leary]

Tom,

I guess the every shot comments are where I think you are incorrect.  Most of the course is very wide. Not Stone Eagle wide, but very wide.  A few shots are butt puckerers.  For me, the tee shots on 5, 7,8,9, 12, 13, 16 and 18 the gunsch is in play, and you and I are similar in terms of ability. On all the other holes there is a wide open area for you to miss. For approach shots, 5, 7,8,9, and 18 are the holes where gunsch is in play. My point is that that isn't that many shots that you are worried about it, at least for a decent player. And I find about 75% of the balls hit in the gunsch.  What I don't like about it isn't that I can't find it, its that you usually can't do much with it but punch out.

[rjsimper]

Okay well "darn near every shot" is Huckaby for "every shot except maybe one or two"...which is Simper for "every shot"

Anyhow, there is the chance to do that...with a Driver off the 7th tee (par 5) I hit 7 iron into the green to about 15 feet - I missed the putt, but I'd say hitting a 7 iron to the green of a par 5 is pretty analagous to the emphatic slam dunk you're talking about.

I do believe, though, that the trump card here is that I've played it, you have not, so you'll just have to assume that my opinion is better than yours

Sean, FYI, my playing partners will tell you that I am now an authority on determining that the ball findability ratio on our play (and on your next play) was and will be closer to about 25%.

Trust me, I picked my moments at Prairie Dunes - Driver off 7 many would say is not intelligent.  Our group's fearless leader noted that since he started hitting 3 wood off that tee, he's something like -1 cumulatively.  Still, I hit driver without a second thought.

On the other hand, on the 11th, a 450 yard par 4, I hit 5 iron off the tee.  

Hitting each fairway in each manner brought me equal joy - the first for a feat of skill and the second for a feat of thought.

PD surely requires both mountains be climbed in order to succeed.

[Sean Leary]

On the other hand, on the 11th, a 450 yard par 4, I hit 5 iron off the tee.  

11 or 12?  You are long but not that long there Tiger

[rjsimper]

On the other hand, on the 11th, a 450 yard par 4, I hit 5 iron off the tee.  

11 or 12?  You are long but not that long there Tiger

11 - with the prevailing south wind, that hole plays downwind and from the elevated tee, its easy to not turn the ball over with a wood and avoid the junk.  

As the gunch creeps in from the right-hand side, you run out of room VERY quickly.  Rather than challenge myself unnecessarily, I took the longest iron in my bag (5) and just hit big draw/hooks with it off the tee for the last 3 rounds which kept me in the fairway and each ran out to leave me between 160 and 200 into the green, depending on how much I turned it over.  In all three rounds I hit 5 iron, I hit the green or just barely over it with an 8 iron, 5 iron, and 9 iron, respectively.

Love that hole, though.  

[Sean Leary]

I forget how much the ball jumps in the summer.

By the way, I can't believe the longest iron you have is a 5. Maybe you could have hit your 11 wood and used the trajectory to slow it down.....

What did you hit on 12?

[rjsimper]

What did you hit on 12?

Round 1 - 3 wood into the junk over the left bunkers
Round 2 - 5 wood into the junk over the left bunkers
Round 3 - 5 wood into the grass between the left bunkers

LESSON LEARNED

Round 4 - 4i Hybrid, 9 iron
Round 5 - 5 iron, PW
Round 6 - 5 iron, 9i

[TEPaul]

"gunch
/guhnch/ To push, prod, or poke at a device that has almost (but not quite) produced the desired result. Implies a threat to mung.

I guess it sounds like TEPaul would love to "gunch" the rough until it meets up with the "gunch".."

Kalen:

I'd just take out the first cut of rough at PD (which I think is way too wide) and make it fairway leaving just enough first cut rough to turn mowers on if they even need to do that since they seem to cut up and back. But the really dangerous stuff is out past that.

I'd not been to PD before but they are definitely doing something with SOME of that really high stuff on some of the holes. When we were there a few weeks ago you could see they'd taken something like a brushhog and torn up a lot of that high gunch out there between some holes.  

[Sean Leary]

Ryan,

Thanks for the pictures.

Prairie Dunes is a wonderful golf course, although, with the newly NARROWED fairways I don't think it's as good as it was when it had more generous fairways.

Why do clubs that host big tournaments, that prepare the golf course specifically for highly specialized and superior field, leave the course as it was prepared, for vastly superior golfers, when the vast majority of the club members who will play the golf course for the next decade are average to high handicappers ?

Pat,

Do you feel the same way about Merion?

Absolutely.
And, I've posted my objection numerous times.
If you read my last paragraph, it's a universal criticism, not a select one.[/color]

PD and Merion are similar in this respect with narrowed fairways.  

Are you saying:  If Merion makes a mistake and other courses make the same mistake, that it's not a mistake ?

Or, are you saying that hallowed Merion gets an exemption, and therefore, that exemption inures to the benefit of courses that follow suit ?[/color]

PD's rough is usually kept shorter and less penal than Merion's (of course Merion does not have the gunch)..

I've been in the "thistle" at PD and it's no picnic.
On the other hand, when looking for a ball in the "Thistle" perhaps taking a picnic basket wouldn't be a bad idea.[/color]

Pat,

Do you think that both these courses may have been set up this way due to the fact that until a few years ago, each was 6500 yardsish, and narrowing the fairways was the way to protect against long hitters on such venerable courses?

[Mark Arata]

Tom,

Most of the course is very wide.

A) like me, and B) it's true, and yet still didnt stop me from finding the gunch on almost every hole back in May.......

It is probably over all the best course I have played, but I love Crystal Downs a little more because it doesnt beat me up for my 90+ score nearly as bad as PD did.....

The more I think of it, CD and PD are fairly similar, except for the gunch, which just gets in your brain if you are not playing well, and causes major havoc.....

[Jason Blasberg]

Huck:

You need to get to Prairie Dunes because it's like Garden City Golf Club in the middle of the Sand Hills.

[Tom Huckaby]

JKB:  I need to get to a lot of places.  That's not the issue.

Ryan:  yes, you've been there and I have not, and I am moved a little.  I'm sure the course is fun in a lot of ways.  To be honest, I also do like courses where an occasional 5iron off the tee is a smart play.  But a little of that goes a long way also.... and the pictures of fairway after fairway, green after green surrounded by gunsch just do make me cringe...  the pictures and descriptions on the clubs web site sure don't help either....PD still does just seem to me to be a bit "too much" in a lot of things I personally don't like about this game.  So "tons of fun" is still what I can't get a handle on.  The course still does seem like more work than fun to me.

But thanks for the effort.

Sean:  that helps a lot, but let's just say the pictures don't help either of your cases, and it's just tough for me to get over what my eyes are telling me and accept your words (and Ryan's).  I know I should, but well... I was not named Thomas accidentally.  It's my nature to doubt.

TH

[Jason Blasberg]

JKB:  I need to get to a lot of places.  That's not the issue.

Like bed for one, it's got to be 4 a.m. your time

[Tom Huckaby]

JKB:

Damn right.  But babies have a way of not understanding time.  


 

[John Sabino]

Ryan - great pictures, thanks for posting. Agree with you, that #8 is one of the best holes in the world with the contours in the fairway as it rises up the hill. Joe

[TEPaul]

                                                                                      My Prairie Dunes Review

   In some ways Perry Maxwell may be my favorite architect. And that is sort of odd because I’ve seen only a course or two by him. Most of my experience with Maxwell is his redesigned holes here and there, including my own course, Gulph Mills in Philadelphia. Of his redesigned holes, almost without exception those holes or parts of them, particularly greens, are some of my favorites anywhere. I’ve said I think he may be the best green designer and builder ever, and I pretty much do mean that.

I’d heard about Prairie Dunes for years and I’ve seen it on TV during some USGA national championships. I went there for three days last month and I expected a lot and I wasn’t disappointed.

As is often the case with expectations compared to first seeing courses, the things I expected to be impressed with were not the only things I was impressed with or even impressed with the most. (The same was very true when I saw ANGC for the first time in person this year).

Before sharing my opinions on the architecture and each hole I should preface by saying we played the course three times in three days in some pretty good wind and we played it each day from the back tees which other than one in our group was probably not the ideal strategic tees for our length. Nevertheless, I am well enough aware of good play and the basic game and length of good players today to completely understand the strategic ramifications of the course for them---as well as everyone else.

I should also preface by saying I mentioned on a thread on GOLFCLUBATLAS that I thought Prairie Dunes just may be the most sophisticated application of some of the best architectural “principles” I’ve ever seen anywhere. And in a general sense here’s why, as well as some reasons I was so impressed by things I didn't expect;

1.   Many to perhaps most of the holes (whether Perry or Press) use diagonals, angles and “turns” of all kinds on the main body of holes as well as around greens and their surrounds.

2.   Combined with the green shapes and internal contours of the course these diagonals, angles and “turns” just constantly flow in such an overall natural look in and of themselves and with everything else out there. In a phrase, this kind of thing creates what I might call total architectural elegance in both small and large ways. The bunkering very much becomes part of this “over-all”.

I stress those two points above because not only do they combine to look so good in a natural sense out there, but they are also the “principles” of architecture that make golf and great courses play so strategically, so multi-optionally in the context of any golfer’s game. With only a few exceptions, the par 3 2nd and 10th, one feels he can create his own roadmap in play with both conservatism combined with a little creative “makeup” next. And in a real way, I think that’s what good golf architecture is all about.

Hole #1:
   The opening hole is a great example of all of what I just said above about Prairie Dunes. The direction and flow of the hole turns right to left around and behind a low hill on the left. The fairway seems to be set on a diagonal rather than as an arc to accommodate this “turn” and the golfer cannot see where the green is---he must sense it. Always for a first time golfer this creates mystery and makes him wonder all the more what he’s supposed to do, what he should do on the drive, particularly directionally. After the drive it’s not hard to tell the strategic choices on the tee shot are excellent combinations of distance and direction always off the diagonal line of the fairway particularly along the left which is bordered by ball eating gunch. If your drive is not long enough you pay for it with a blind to semi blind approach to the green that accommodates this kind of blindness with a lot of fairway or chipping area around the green (again most of which can’t be seen from some of the approach area. If one is long and gets too aggressive with a drive (or even a recovery second shot) without the proper direction you can get too far to the right of the diagonal fairway to be left with having to deal with a little bosky of trees on the right about 75 yards from the green.
   Hole #1 is basically what we call a natural landform hole---eg only the green itself is very slightly propped up off pre-course natural grade although its sides flow out naturally and well. The green internal slopes and rolls are classic Maxwell although by no means as intense as some of what comes later on the course. One does need to be mindful of the green, though, so as not to get above or to the side of some pins to be left with something too quick or breaking. This hole in its over-all is a great example of what I mean by simple yet sophisticated elegance in both architectural look and in strategic play.

Holes to follow

[Tom Huckaby]

TEP - please tell me you are saving this in a document somewhere... if that's only 1/18th of your prose about this course, you better increase the memory on your computer also.

 

Great stuff.  Sounds like the architecture is wonderful.  But one request... which you certainly may deny, no hard feelings... can you make an attempt to give a bottom line on how the holes PLAY, in terms of difficult/painful/fun?  That may not be your thing, and if so, understood.  But your take would be very valuable to me, and perhaps help me get more toward believing my friends about how fun this course is to play (if indeed it is).

TH

[George Pazin]

Terrific post, Tom P. That's the kind of thinking and sharing everyone should aspire to when they post reviews of golf courses.

Looking forward to the rest.

[TEPaul]

"But one request... which you certainly may deny, no hard feelings... can you make an attempt to give a bottom line on how the holes PLAY, in terms of difficult/painful/fun?"

Tom:

Sure, no problem. While I haven't completely read the posts between you and Ryan Simper about this point I think I know what you mean by that about Prairie Dunes.

First of all, I've suggested that the club should get rid of those really wide first cut rough swaths on most of the holes. If they did that it isn't going to necessarily make the course play easier or keep golfers out of the gunch but in my opinion if a golf course gives golfers some serious and really penal gunch and also some really wide and accommodating fairway area to compensate for it they should begin to figure out some modicum of strategy to suit their game to stay out of the gunch. I'll give you an example. If Ryan hit his drive on #11 and it just went straight over the right to left diagonal of the fairway, I think that's just his own fault and bad judgement, and not the architecture's difficulty that's a fault. There's a whole lot of fairway (and would be more if they got rid of those first cut rough swaths) on that hole if you just look at it and consider what to hit and where.

I say this about the first cut rough recognizing there's nothing at all difficult about playing out of it, I just think it makes the fairways look sort of odd---and certainly narrower. I think golfers should have the sensation that they have a ton of fairway to play to for alternatives and those really wide first cut rough swaths minimized that bigtime, in my opinion.

I do recognize if PD were to take my suggestion their fairway area would increase by maybe 50% and that costs.

Max Behr's point about penal hazards and fairway in a strategic relationship is if you give golfers enough opportunity to miss something it should only seem to them it's their own fault if they get in it.

You should also recognize about PD that the gunch is mostly relating to tee shots. The greens are largely surrounded by short fairway grass and if they aren't on one side they are on the other.

Any thinking golfer should learn to notice that and to pick up on these kinds of things strategically.

[TEPaul]

Prairie Dunes Review


Hole #2:

This hole makes me realize why it's valuable to review a course the first time you see it.

#2, the first time you step on its tee, evokes a pretty strong and diverse sensory impact.

My first impression was it's longer than the card says but that may've been because of a strong wind in our face. But perhaps it's a scale thing too----eg that green looks pretty small in relation to all that's around it architecturally and otherwise.

The next thought was that old strategic saw: "Where's the best place to miss the tee shot?" That kind of sensation is always an interesting one on a short par 3 hole and it reminds me what I first thought about the great little par 3 10th at Pine Valley. Frankly, I like that kind of sensation in architecture, particularly on short par 3s.

I really did start analyzing the hole for that reason and purpose, even though I have to admit that isn't very positive of me vis-a-vis playing the hole.  

I could see you can't miss it right of the right bunker or you probably wouldn't find the ball. I could see you can't miss it too far left or the same thing might happen.

It looked to me like the best place to miss it was in the front bunkers (even if they're very deep) or hole high left from which you could chip onto the green relatively easily compared to the rest of the recovery areas.

I guess I did notice how sloping and radical the green surface was and if you put it on the green in the wrong place to the pin your problems may be as severe as missing the green in a fairly good place.

All in all, those are some pretty interesting thoughts for a hole to evoke for the first time player at PD, and I felt to make a golfer feel that way means everything around that green-end is in some pretty good visual/strategic balance or equilibrium. To me that's both interesting and good golf course architecture.

So, I missed it short in the front bunker right under the green and hit a good bunker shot about six feet to the left and above the front pin and missed the severely breaking and super fast putt.  

Every good course needs a short par 3 something like this one in green hitting challenge, in my opinion. And like the 10th at PVGC, I feel this hole should always be a short one and not have distance added simply because of all it is and how demanding it can play in the over-all. In other words, it should always remain a short iron.

But for an architectural analyst I got pretty fascinated in the next few rounds trying to figure out what the ground looked like at the green end before Perry Maxwell built the hole.

I think I can detect where he got the fill and how he leveled the green surface off enough against the natural fall of that hillside it's on.

Nevertheless, Maxwell did a beautiful job that way on this hole because it's not obvious to anyone who doesn't really study that kind of thing. It's also a good example of how to tranistion the eye well up a steep incline in front with the use of bunkers.

On Perry Maxwell's original nine hole course the golfer walked off the green to the left and teed off around the middle tee of #6 as the 4th hole.

PS;

Notice in the photo on the first page how they've bush-hogged some of the gunch above and to the left of this hole. I'd say they've done the same thing recently on about 20-25% of the areas near greens and tee shots in and around the golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do you think that both these courses may have been set up this way due to the fact that until a few years ago, each was 6500 yardsish, and narrowing the fairways was the way to protect against long hitters on such venerable courses?

Sean,

I'd say PROBABLY NOT with respect to Merion and PROBABLY YES with respect to PD.

As long as I can remember the rough at Merion was deep and difficult.

However, many years ago they did narrow their fairways for the OPENs and they've yet to be returned to their original widths, although some were rewidened, but, they may be narrowed again for the upcoming Open.  And, if history is any teacher or barometer, it will be decades before they're returned to the widths of old, if ever at all.

I think it's a trend in the presentation of golf courses that hold big tournaments, that makes the game less enjoyable for club memberships.

Many memberships today are populated by a large percentage of relatively new members, members in many cases who had no prior club affiliation and/or very little in the way of historical links to golf.

Hence, they want to present their golf course as the "PGA TOUR PROS" to show how difficult it is.

Now, I love a challenge and like to strive to play beyond my ability, and while I'd relish the opportunity to play these wonderful golf courses in their championship mode, I wouldn't want to do it as a steady diet.

I think the "culture" of golf has become corrupted and misguided.

Hopefully, the pendulum will swing back toward presenting a "sporty" challenge that's enjoyable for the great majority of members, instead of an overwhelming challenge that's beyond their abilities and tedious at best.
[/color]

[TEPaul]

"But one request... which you certainly may deny, no hard feelings... can you make an attempt to give a bottom line on how the holes PLAY, in terms of difficult/painful/fun?"

Tom:

Sure, no problem. While I haven't completely read the posts between you and Ryan Simper about this point I think I know what you mean by that about Prairie Dunes.

First of all, I've suggested that the club should get rid of those really wide first cut rough swaths on most of the holes. If they did that it isn't going to necessarily make the course play easier or keep golfers out of the gunch but in my opinion if a golf course gives golfers some serious and really penal gunch and also some really wide and accommodating fairway area to compensate for it they should begin to figure out some modicum of strategy to suit their game to stay out of the gunch. I'll give you an example. If Ryan hit his drive on #11 and it just went straight over the right to left diagonal of the fairway, I think that's just his own fault and bad judgement, and not the architecture's difficulty that's a fault. There's a whole lot of fairway (and would be more if they got rid of those first cut rough swaths) on that hole if you just look at it and consider what to hit and where.

I say this about the first cut rough recognizing there's nothing at all difficult about playing out of it, I just think it makes the fairways look sort of odd---and certainly narrower. I think golfers should have the sensation that they have a ton of fairway to play to for alternatives to that gunch and those really wide first cut rough swaths minimized that sensation bigtime, in my opinion.

I do recognize if PD were to take my suggestion their fairway area would increase by maybe 50% and that costs.

Max Behr's point about penal hazards and fairway in a strategic relationship is if you give golfers enough opportunity to miss something it should only seem to them it's their own fault if they get in it.

You should also recognize about PD that the gunch is mostly relating to tee shots. The greens are largely surrounded by short fairway grass and if they aren't on one side they are on the other.

Any thinking golfer should learn to notice things like that and to pick up on these kinds of things strategically.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()