Australian Open and Nicklaus

[John Kavanaugh]

Did Nicklaus really win this championship six times?  I am phone posting and may have been duped.

Is the AO played on a rota of courses?  It would seem that this championship has a shot at number two in the world.  What is some history and why does it appear that Nicklaus's commitment to the event does not seem to have payed off?

[Tom Huckaby]

Jack did indeed win it six times.

Here's all you need re history....

http://mensausopen.golfaustralia.org.au/default.aspx?s=openhistory

[John Kavanaugh]

Jack did indeed win it six times.

Here's all you need re history....

http://mensausopen.golfaustralia.org.au/default.aspx?s=openhistory

That must be one of the great unknown feats in golf.  I'd say this may put Nicklaus ahead of Watson when it comes to discussing the greatest links golfer of all time.

[Tom Huckaby]

That would assume this tourney was always played on links courses... it hasn't been, has it?

Also, I have a feeling the depth of field in Nicklaus' day wasn't exactly strong.  This wasn't a tourney many US nor European golfers went to routinely, was it?  I seem to recall Jack went every year for many years primarily as a means of paying for his annual fishing trip down there....

This event could be made into a major, for sure.  And I kinda like the idea of replacing the US PGA with it.  But the traditions would pretty much have to start now... with full international-strength fields....

TH

[Philip Gawith]

John - where does that leave our Gary Player who won it seven times!?

[John Kavanaugh]

I have no idea if Australian Open courses are classified as links.  Anybody know of an architecture site that may be discussed?

[John Kavanaugh]

John - where does that leave our Gary Player who won it seven times!?

How does Gary's British record compare with Jack's.  Player gets his due no matter how painful it is to serve.

[Philip Gawith]

I think Gary won The Open twice - at Muirfield in 59? and Lytham in 74. Not sure how many times Jack won it - more than that I expect.

[John Kavanaugh]

Would have Nicklaus been paid show up pay back in the day?

[Andrew Hastie]

I believe Nicklaus had a deal with Kerry Packer to play a number of Aus open's after he re-designed the Australian, and it was also handy for his annual fishing trip.The Australian was a better course before he re-designed it.Another MacKenzie course lost

[Bob_Huntley]

I think Gary won The Open twice - at Muirfield in 59? and Lytham in 74. Not sure how many times Jack won it - more than that I expect.

Philip,

How could you? Player won at Carnoustie in 1968
Bob

[Philip Gawith]

I stand suitably chastised  and humbled Bob. My wife will confirm that my memory is diabolical - and of course I am still very young!

[Mark Chaplin]

I've played RM & Metro which are both very good sandbelt courses, R Hobart, R Queensland and R Sydney are definately parkland and RA is sort of sandbelt/parkland. All very good courses F&F yes, but not links type.

[Sean Walsh]

Mark,

I've played Royal Hobart and although not in the class of most of the Melbourne Sandbelt I would be very suprised if the soil composition is any less sandy.  It is also no more tree lined than any of the Sandbelt I've seen.  A pleasant course on very flat humpy sandy land.

[James Bennett]

Would have Nicklaus been paid show up pay back in the day?

Pre Kerry Packer and the rebuild of the Australian course in Sydney (Kensington - see Andrew Hastie's comment), both Gary Player and Jack Nicklaus were contracted by Dunlop/Slazenger, the local golf club manufacturer (in competition with another Australian firm PGF).  It was rare to see a set of Pings in Australia or other American clubs till perhaps 1975 (and still uncommon then).

I discovered on my most recent visit that the MacGregor 1970's irons (Nicklaus) and the Slazenger Nicklaus irons from the same era were both the split-level sole design! Player had his Black Knight offset power mid-profile clubs, similar to a Lynx model from that 70's era.

The Australian Open was also a small-ball event (1.62 inch) until perhaps the mid 1970's.  Player and Nicklaus both used Slazenger balls when in Australia.  Very much local markets then.

Sean, I think Royal Hobart is located at 'Sandy Bay' IIRC - a Vern Morcom course.  Of course, the OZ Open was played with persimmon woods there, so the shorter length of the course would not have been as much of an issue then.

James B

[Jim Nugent]

Nicklaus won three British Opens and came in 2nd about seven times.  I'm not sure Gary's first British Open should even count as a major.  Almost none of the top U.S. players took part.  And they were many, or most, of the world's best players then.

[Mark_F]

I'm not sure Gary's first British Open should even count as a major.  Almost none of the top U.S. players took part.  And they were many, or most, of the world's best players then.

What a load of cobblers.

Presumably that means Peter Thomson's Open wins shouldn't count, either?

Further, that would also mean that if Sergio, Adam Scott, Geoff Ogilvy, Henrik Stenson, Luke Donald, Vijay Singh and Padraig Harrington sat out the Majors next year, they wouldn't be Majors anymore, since that would only leave a handful of second-rate Americans playing.

The Australian Open did tend to flip each year between Melbourne and Sydney, with the exception of The Grand in Queensland in 2001, but following the appointment of Paul McNamee as tournament director, it is now thought better to host the event in the same city for a number of years, as it is apparently easier to lure and keep corporate sponsorship.

Hence last year's event at Royal Sydney and this year's at The Australian.

Next year it will be at Ellerston, sans spectators and television coverage, and we will all have to rely on Kenny Sutcliffe accurately relaying the events to us on the wireless.

[Jon Wiggett]

Nicklaus won three British Opens and came in 2nd about seven times.  I'm not sure Gary's first British Open should even count as a major.  Almost none of the top U.S. players took part.  And they were many, or most, of the world's best players then.

Jim,

maybe you should flip your thinking on its head! It could be argued that very few of the tp US players could be considered great players as they had not proven themselves in international tournaments (no Canada does not qualify ) Indeed one reason Hogan played in the '53 Open was to prove his pedigree.

[Dustin Knight]

It's reported that Tiger would require an appearance fee
of $4million to attend the Aus Open these days,you
would think that with Jack's records a priority for him to
surpass he would want to try and win here. What hope
does the Aus Open have of regaining it's status in world
golf when the world's number 1 needs that sort of money
to play a national open that has such illustrious names
on the Stonehaven Cup.

[Jon Wiggett]

Dustin,

does that mean Tiger is going to have to design as many courses as Jack?

[Dustin Knight]

Point taken Jon, as a proud Aussie it would be nice to see
his name on that trophy at some stage thats all. I guess
we will just have to keep producing more great Aussie
players to challenge him on his own turf

[Jim Nugent]

Jim,

maybe you should flip your thinking on its head! It could be argued that very few of the tp US players could be considered great players as they had not proven themselves in international tournaments (no Canada does not qualify ) Indeed one reason Hogan played in the '53 Open was to prove his pedigree.

The first and only time Hogan went to the British Open, he won.  First and only time Snead went there, he won.  First time Palmer went there, he came in second.  He won the next two years.  

Since Palmer opened the floodgates, and the best American golfers started regularly playing the British Open, they have won the majority of years.  They also totally dominated in the 1920's and early 1930's, which was another era when many of America's best went to Britain for the Open Championship.  

Non-U.S. players started winning around 1934 after the top Americans stopped playing.  They did not win when the best players like Snead and Hogan played.  And when the best American golfers returned in the early 1960's, non-U.S. players again stopped winning most of the time.  

I conclude from that many or most of the world's best golfers then were American.  Since almost none of them ever played the British Open from 1934 to 1960, I think the fields then were not world-class, and the event from those years is questionable to me as a major.  

[Andrew Summerell]

Jim,

maybe you should flip your thinking on its head! It could be argued that very few of the tp US players could be considered great players as they had not proven themselves in international tournaments (no Canada does not qualify ) Indeed one reason Hogan played in the '53 Open was to prove his pedigree.

The first and only time Hogan went to the British Open, he won.  First and only time Snead went there, he won.  First time Palmer went there, he came in second.  He won the next two years.  

Since Palmer opened the floodgates, and the best American golfers started regularly playing the British Open, they have won the majority of years.  They also totally dominated in the 1920's and early 1930's, which was another era when many of America's best went to Britain for the Open Championship.  

Non-U.S. players started winning around 1934 after the top Americans stopped playing.  They did not win when the best players like Snead and Hogan played.  And when the best American golfers returned in the early 1960's, non-U.S. players again stopped winning most of the time.  

I conclude from that many or most of the world's best golfers then were American.  Since almost none of them ever played the British Open from 1934 to 1960, I think the fields then were not world-class, and the event from those years is questionable to me as a major.  

Excellent stuff. I almost fell of my chair laughing.

Jim,

Where did the best players in the world come from between 1984  & 1994 ?

Back on Topic:
The Australian Open has not always had that strong a field & the prize money has not been great over the years, so attracting the better golfers from around the world required paying an appearance fee.

In regards to links courses. Australia has very few true links courses.

[Kevin Pallier]

I conclude from that many or most of the world's best golfers then were American.  Since almost none of them ever played the British Open from 1934 to 1960, I think the fields then were not world-class, and the event from those years is questionable to me as a major.  

Interesting theory Jim - so we only count Major records when American golfers decide to turn up and play in them ?


Royal Adelaide is on very exposed terrain and has somewhat the feel of a "links" course. It and Moonah Links are probably the two closest "links styled" courses to have held the Australian Open....hopefully Barnbougle Dunes will do so one year  

Other courses to have hosted the Aust. Open include:
Gailes / Royal Qld / The Grand (QLD)
The Lakes / Australian / Royal Sydney (NSW)
Royal Melbourne / Kingston Heath / Victoria / Metropolitan / Commonwealth / Moonah Links (VIC)
Royal Adelaide / Kooyonga (SA)
Royal Hobart (TAS)
Lake Karrinyup (WA)

[Jon Wiggett]

Jim,

Between 1920 and 1939 the Open was won by  Richard Burton, R.A. Whitcombe, Henry Cotton, Alfred Perry, Arthur Havers, Jock Hutchison, George Duncan making a total of  7 winners coming from Britain

With Denny Shute, Gene Sarazen, Robert Jones Jr. , Walter Hagen , James Barnes, Walter Hagen 6 winners came from the USA.

With Alfred Padgham I am not sure which nationality he had and Tommy Armour  could be claimed by both  GB and USA.

It is clear that especially the records of Walter Hagen and Bobby Jones are exceptional but it hardly constitutes the domination you talk about especially if you consider that the GB golfing scene had been decimated by the WWI.
While I agree that many great players in the post WWII era were from USA, to say that the likes of Gary Player, Peter Thomson, Bobby Locke and Henry Cotton did not make for a world class field is a statement that beggers belief. Snead also did not win everytime he played as you seem to believe and as I previously mentioned Hogan played in the Open because he felt he had to have won it atleast once in order to be considered a true golfing great.
Even after Palmers 2 wins 5 of the next 7 Opens were won by non USA players followed by a run of  12 out of 14 won by USA players, then 10 out of 11 by non USA. Seems to me the theory of American domination doesn’t stand up any more than that for non American. Conclusion seems to be that the worlds great golfers have always been spread through various continents and to me just because a few of them didn’t travel to play the Open doesn’t lessen the status of the competition, ask Walter Burkemo if the 1953 USPGA wasn’t a major because the dominant dead certain winner didn’t play!