Discounts for fast players

[Matt_Ward]

Most rangers / marshalls are literally CLUELESS on just what it is they are supposed to do. I can remember the old geezers who served as rangers at a course I used to play a lot and there was a nearby swimming pool just off property. The old timers were busy straining their necks to see if the 40-year-old gal with the 36DD was taking a dip.

The sad reality is that most management styles are extremely tentative when it comes to policing the effects of slow play. They don't want to piss off someone -- do you imagine the net result of someone being told at Pebble Beach that they need to pick up the pace after plunking down $500+ to play?

As a player I should not have to police the actions of others. It's up to management to understand their course -- where the slow points generally happen and to implement some sort of relief -- escorting people off property is the nuclear option but should be done if all other options have failed.

Golf as a game is slowly dying because it costs too much for too many prospective people and the sheer amount of time one needs to dedicate to it is something many people are not going to do.

P.S. I do agree w Phil Y -- the type of terrain you face will dictate the overall pace of play. Getting it around Bethpage Black in 4 1/2 hours is very good because of the sheer physicality in walking the place.

[RE Blanks]

Garland, by championship I mean "club championship" conditions.  Usually the one time a year we get the course that plays closest to its true potential.  Two years ago, we hosted the state am and yes it was a little over the top with the rough and green speed for our greens.  
I like playing my course with some penalty for not hitting the fairway and having to make sure I hit my approach below the hole.  I think we are selling out the playability of our courses with our attitudes towards getting in a quick round of golf.  Just the way i see it.  

[Garland Bayley]

...
The sad reality is that most management styles are extremely tentative when it comes to policing the effects of slow play. They don't want to piss off someone -- do you imagine the net result of someone being told at Pebble Beach that they need to pick up the pace after plunking down $500+ to play?
...

Yes Matt, but what has that to do with my proposal? The marshal does not have to be tentative nor does he have to piss anyone off.

Why? Because he is rewarding people.

[Phil McDade]

Well, as long as we have the expert on the board, I have a question:

How much faster would rounds be if Bob Rotella and Jack Nicklaus had never been born and the obsessive/compulsive, obscenely long zen-trance pre-shot routine (including putting routines) didn't exist?

I estimate 40 minutes, based on four 90 shooters each completely wasting 10 seconds on 2/3 of their shots because they watch the Tour pros do it.

A follow-up question:  how much does lining up the Cheater Line (TM) -- that has now been stolen from me by Titleist --  waste?  

Ah, here we go again with the Bob Rotella and Jack Nicklaus argument. Most of the slow pokes at my local muni (just a guess, but I'm betting place of play is not that big an issue at Butler or Shoreacres) have never heard of Rotella and, though they know of Jack, they don't understand the nature of his role in calculating yardages to the Nth degree and considering wind and angle of play and all that into pre-shot routines.

The guys on my muni are slow for three reasons -- they don't make any effort to get reasonably close to their ball while their partners are hitting, they take way too many practice swings, and they stand over their ball for 20 seconds or so before swinging. None of it has to do with positive thoughts or yardages or club selection. They're just slow, and apparently have never been encouraged by anyone to play otherwise. Add in a cart, and it makes them that much slower.

My regular gang, playing one Sunday as a sixsome, got yelled at by some yahoo in a cart for having too many players in our group. So I timed his group, knowing that the six of us were churning through holes at 10 minutes a clip. Took his cart foursome 30 minutes to complete two holes (par 4 and short par 5).

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, by championship I mean "club championship" conditions.  Usually the one time a year we get the course that plays closest to its true potential.  Two years ago, we hosted the state am and yes it was a little over the top with the rough and green speed for our greens.  
I like playing my course with some penalty for not hitting the fairway and having to make sure I hit my approach below the hole.  I think we are selling out the playability of our courses with our attitudes towards getting in a quick round of golf.  Just the way i see it.  

As those who design good courses understand, it is not necessary to miss the fairway to have some penalty. Just hoping you will see it a little differently.

[Mike_Cirba]

I was behind a foursome this past weekend and was about 70 yards short of the green on the par five 10th.

They were about 20 minutes into the hole and two of them were literally on their hands and knees on the green while the other two circled behind them from every conceivable direction.  I thought I was about to witness some twisted, hedonistic, Bacchanalian ritual when one finally got himself prone, lumbered lazily towards his ball, then stood over his 15 foot putt, took two or three practice swings, and said, "I just hope I can make this for an 8".

The only person wishing harder for him to make it was me.

[Garland Bayley]

...The guys on my muni are slow for three reasons -- they don't make any effort to get reasonably close to their ball while their partners are hitting, they take way too many practice swings, and they stand over their ball for 20 seconds or so before swinging. None of it has to do with positive thoughts or yardages or club selection. They're just slow, and apparently have never been encouraged by anyone to play otherwise. Add in a cart, and it makes them that much slower.
...

So let's give them an incentive!

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
If you think thats the best way to educate the slowpokes and get their attention so be it.

In working with my high school girls team, most of them start as beginners to the game. They start by taking 4 practice swings every shot and hitting it 10 feet occasionally. Before they get to the course, other than making sure they can hit the ball, I make sure they understand the importance of finding the happy medium between concentrating on hitting a good shot and doing it without undue delay. They walk in about 3.5 hours as is the norm for the municipal course that we played on.

I agree with the others that have said that pace of play is directly correlated to how much effort the management puts into their pace of play policies and mainly whether or not these marshalls actually enforce it.

I'd be interested to see if your idea would work. I believe you are suggesting raising rates then giving it back to the speedy players. I think some would go elsewhere due to concern they would not get their money back. It might work if it caught on with a good marketing campaign, but it might be a disaster if poorly implemented.

[Chris Cupit]

I deal with pace of play at my private club daily and we have had some success.

We have a pace rating from our stategolf assoc that breaks down the time "par" per hole.

We have gone from eight to ten minute intervals and it has made a HUGE difference for the better.

For Saturday mornings I have a starter and two marshals and we note when every group tees off and finishes.  I have followed up at times with a letter to EVERYONE who played that day letting them know when they teed off (were they late to the tee?), when they finished and how many minutes behind the group in front of them they finished.

Our old Saturday morning system was two tees from 8:00 AM until 10:00 AM at eight minute intervals--32 times or 128 players with a "crossover" for the turn.  With a mulligan for the first tee for everyone (try telling a private club member no mulligans ) there is no way a group can get out of the way before the next group wants to tee off.

Also, assuming an average foursome has each player hitting 60% of the fairways (I think that is a high %), then for all four to be in the fairway the odds are just 12%!!  Almost every par 4 and par 5 you are guarranteed there is someone in trouble off the tee.

Anyway, the problem for the 8:00 AM group is even if they finished the front in 1 3/4 hours, they had to wait 20-30 minutes to even tee off on the back as by 10:00 the tee was usually backed up.  The best case was a 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 round.

Now we tee off on tee starting at 7:00 AM at 10 minute intervals.  Last week our 10:30 time was able to finish in 4 hours 11 minutes and the worst times (the 11:30) finished in 4 hrs 22 minutes!!  The spacing makes a huge difference.

Last thing we instituted was a policy that did not "allow" groups that were holding up play to let people "play through"!!  While it may please the group or two right behind them, ultimately overall speed of play isn't improved on a busy day.  Our policy is this:

If a group is behind time, out of position and holding up a group, they MUST pick up their golf balls and get in position--i.e.  skip a hole or holes if needed to get in the right spot.  It's tough but it works because we absolutely enforce that policy.

Best of all, the membership knows and appreciates that we actually give a damn and recognize that slow players are violating a bsaic rule of etiquette--we have clearly stted that to hold up play by playing slow is a breach of etiquette no different than failing to rake bunkers, repair divots or fix ball marks.  

Yes, I've ticked off some people but I'd rather piss off one group than ruin the day of all the groups behind them.

[RE Blanks]

Am I the only one that has a fast play problem at their club?  I can play 2 in 3 hrs, 3 in 3.5, and 4 in 4 hrs.  Is that too slow?  I really think that some at my club measure their golfing ability by how fast they can play nine holes rather than how many strokes.

[John Kavanaugh]

RE,

You are not the only one.  Try to teach a 12 yr old how to play by the rules and walk and carry.  Even during the week modern medicine has extended the life of so many retired gentlemen who race around the course it is difficult for a child to find a comfortable spot.  Oh how I yearn for the days of lore 30 years ago when people my age could plan on dying young.

My problem is with the social misfits who can not find a foresome on the weekends and play as one or two when four of us are trying to have a simple money game.  I just wish they would go around us instead of insisting on playing holes they see hundreds of times per year.

[jeffwarne]

John,
Amen to the social misfit problem.
I had to explain to a single why he couldn't go ahead/through the 8 twosomes in our speed slots on sat morning.

The other problem is the riding twosome who insists on playing through the golf course and all those "slow foursomes"

I see more fast play problems than slow play problems.
Always from riders or groups smaller than the rules permit on weekend days.

[Rick Shefchik]

I don't understand the math or the physics of the "every 7 minutes"  complaint. A foursome can play a round of golf in 3 and a half hours on most course with little strain. The first group off the tee in the morning could average nearly 12 minutes per hole and still finish in around 3.5 hours.

So the first group tees off, hits their approach shots in about seven minutes, then the next group tees off. If the first group plays at a reasonable pace -- 12 minutes per hole -- there's no backup.

Allowing for lost balls, par threes and reachable par 5s, there will be holes where groups bunch up for a while, but as soon as these temporary bottlenecks are passed, the lead group speeds up again, the group behind them catches up, and we're back on a 3.5 hour pace.

No one has been able to explain to me why this pace can't be maintained. Blaming it on the tee sheet simply excuses the groups already on the course who aren't playing fast enough.

By this logic, everyone on all the Los Angeles freeways should have no problem driving 70mph.  If everyone went the same 70 mph, nobody would run into anyone and there would be space between cars.  The flaw of the logic is of course that inevitably drivers (and golfers) have to put on the brakes, and they have to do so more often if there are more drivers (or golfers) on the road.

You still haven't explained to my why, if the first group plays in (I'll be generous here) 4 hours, the groups behind them cannot also play in four hours as long as they make it their responsibility to catch up to the group in front of them whenever they have to put on the brakes.

If you're saying that just isn't going to happen, that's one thing; if you're saying that can't happen, I'm not buying it.

The group behind them may have played in 4 hours or less if they were the first group off, but their slow points in their round won't exactly coincide with the group in front of them.  And if the tee times are closely spaced, they may get held up during the holes or points in there round where they would have played faster than the group in front of them.  make sense?

No.

Once again, you are making excuses for groups that don't understand their obligation to catch up to the group in front of them when a gap opens.

[Bill_Yates]

Answers to specific questions by:
John,
I have not specifically studied the delay caused by letting faster players through (your post #36).  The reason is that even with the hundreds of hours I've spent on courses observing play with multiple stopwatches running, I don't recall ever witnessing a group playing through another.  And the reason for that is I do my consulting on weekends when the courses are the busiest and under those conditions, why play through there is no place to go.  Most courses are overcrowded, when I first see them, we smooth it out then I leave.

Shivas,
The question you asked (post #37) about the Rotella and Nicklaus phenomenon falls under my "Player Behavior" category. You're darned right that having a 20-minute precisely choreographed pre-shot routine adds time to the round when it happens before every player takes a shot.   Management (the USGA, the PGA Tour and other bodies running our championships) have to establish objective "Time Pars" for every hole and set and agree on policies to deal with individuals and/or groups taking too much time on a hole.  If such standards were objectively based and fairly and consistently applied, I'm sure the coaches and players would find a way to prepare for a shot in a timely manner.  TV viewers would see different behaviors and perhaps start copying those.

As for your "cheater line," if that is your invention, what the heck are you bragging about, you might be the guy who single-handedly slowed the game of golf to a crawl.  

Tom,
In your post (#39) you mentioned that courses that have the demand don't seem to care about pace of play.  In many cases you're absolutely right. The concept of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" works fine for those course management teams, but unfortunately doesn't work so well for their customers.  Players can and should demand quality.  Once a consistent quality and high value experience (that doesn't have to cost more money) is available at a competitor's course,  then go there to play and tell the old course why you are doing it.  If the old course has a local monopoly on the game, then tell them that by improving their quality they can fill those starting times that are now going empty 2 hours before the Twilight Rate begins.  They'll make more money and you'll have more high-quality starting times to choose from.  The root problem is that the quality improvement solution is counterintuitive and it plays into management's biggest fears.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bill,
One thing that seems important to me is making players aware, before they step on the first tee, of what your pace-of-play is and the remedies they face if they do not adhere to it.

One I liked: the ranger asks you twice to pick up the pace, don't and they ask you to leave and give you a 'rain check' for the remaining holes, to be used at a slow time later in the day.
Another I saw: the ranger escorts a slow group to the 150 yd marker on a par 4 or 5, and has them play in from there.

I also think courses have it backassward, put the retired guy in the drink cart and put the sweet young thing in the ranger cart.
What guy doesn't listen-up better to a pretty face than a grizzled mug? No brainer.  

[Mike Hendren]

I see three issues that cannot be resolved:

1.  Every year there a fewer and fewer golfers who were taught etiquette by their daddy because they picked up the game later in life.  Most folks don't have a clue.

2.  The folks populating golf courses are primarily consumers - not golfers.  We live in a consumer society which only asks "what's in it for me."  They pay their money to use the golf course - for as long as they darned well please.

3.  Most folks don't care.  With any luck the round will last longer and they won't have to mow the grass when they get home, or help with homework during the week.  

Nobody's going to speed up for a sleeve of golf balls when you can buy the Pinnacle 15 pack for $12 at Academy Sports.  

On the other hand, a policeman once told me that a big mean dog is far superior to any alarm system on the market.  Same with speeding up play - get a crusty retired military man with the unilateral right to toss folks on the spot and have him make an example of a couple of chumps.  Dog cuss 'em for good measure.  Word will spread.  

Mike

[Bill_Yates]

Shivas,
I didn't miss your point, I was ragging you. Are you really sure you're not responsible for single-handedly slowing the game to a crawl?  

Jim,
You're absolutely right!  Give your guests all the facts up front, and give them the confidence that management and not the group in front of them is controlling the flow on the course.  Then, if necessary, take the action you and your policies say you will take.  And, I really like the "sweet young thing" idea as well.  Rangers need to be hired based on their sales record and customer service experience, not their arrest record while they were in the force.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,
In your post (#39) you mentioned that courses that have the demand don't seem to care about pace of play.  In many cases you're absolutely right. The concept of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" works fine for those course management teams, but unfortunately doesn't work so well for their customers.  Players can and should demand quality.  Once a consistent quality and high value experience (that doesn't have to cost more money) is available at a competitor's course,  then go there to play and tell the old course why you are doing it.  If the old course has a local monopoly on the game, then tell them that by improving their quality they can fill those starting times that are now going empty 2 hours before the Twilight Rate begins.  They'll make more money and you'll have more high-quality starting times to choose from.  The root problem is that the quality improvement solution is counterintuitive and it plays into management's biggest fears.

Bill - thanks.  But sadly none of that applies in San Jose, CA, where the golfer to course ratio is ungodly high, decent courses that don't cost an arm and a leg are ungodly few, and crowds are just a way of life.  This course simply has zero reason to give a crap about their customers' experience, as their tee sheet does indeed remain full dawn to dusk.  There is no empty time before twilight starts.

Sigh....

TH

[Phil McDade]

I also think courses have it backassward, put the retired guy in the drink cart and put the sweet young thing in the ranger cart.
What guy doesn't listen-up better to a pretty face than a grizzled mug? No brainer.  

Jim:

Maybe, but a good friend of mine -- whose college-attending daughter will clear (clear!) $10,000 this summer from her work on the beverage cart -- might object.....

[Garland Bayley]

John,
Amen to the social misfit problem.
I had to explain to a single why he couldn't go ahead/through the 8 twosomes in our speed slots on sat morning.

The other problem is the riding twosome who insists on playing through the golf course and all those "slow foursomes"

I see more fast play problems than slow play problems.
Always from riders or groups smaller than the rules permit on weekend days.

If you people want to discuss the problem of single players on courses that are not filled to the limits and experiencing 5 1/2 hour rounds, why don't you start your own thread and arrogantly blather on about "social misfits" to your hearts content out of sight of the decent people here.

[George Pazin]

John, I thought a lot about your posts on this and several other recent threads last night, and it really taught me a lot about you and why you post the way you do. So thanks for that.

Since you enjoy reading others' private messages, I'll send my thoughts to Garland and you can read them at your leisure.

[Tom Birkert]

I also think courses have it backassward, put the retired guy in the drink cart and put the sweet young thing in the ranger cart.
What guy doesn't listen-up better to a pretty face than a grizzled mug? No brainer.  

Jim:

Maybe, but a good friend of mine -- whose college-attending daughter will clear (clear!) $10,000 this summer from her work on the beverage cart -- might object.....

Good for her... She can buy the first drink then!!  

On a serious note, I'm not used to the concept of cart girls so find them a welcome distraction (plus they usually like the accent). If the round if going to take that long then at least I have something to look forward to!

Slow play is not the norm for me, so I can put up with it on occasion, even if I don't like it and it impacts negatively on my game.

[Matt_Ward]

It's important to realize the dynamics of the issue.

At private clubs the solutions are far easier and quicker to implement. Those who constantly drag their butts can be penalized in a host of ways which are far speedier and likely effective.

At the public / resort level it's a different situation. Spacing of players is rarely done. You also have few facilities that really understand their courses and where the traditional bottlenecks constantly develop.

You also have a genuine fear in handling the 1% of the loudmouths who listen to no one. My God if a group voluntarily waves the group behind them I would literally fall down and die. For the macho type A types the very idea in having a group play through is akin to being un-American.

Management, at most of the top dollar places, doesn't want to piss anyone off so in order to handle the complaints from groups that had to suffer behind slowpokes and the like, are generally offered comps to make up for the pain they suffered. This happens plenty of times in Hawaii and in other well-connected places. Unfortunately, it's not a reasonable solution for the guy / gal playing today's muni.

A number of the taxpayer-owned places in Jersey are often populated by political appointees who are literally clueless about knowing anything about golf and how to run such facilities. As a result you get the 5 1/2 + rounds.

Frankly, I laugh when people who have posted on this thread say that today's consumer is unprepared to play and play with etiquette in mind. Really.

Allow me to clue a few people in -- many management operations are no less clueless on what it is they are supposed to be doing. Too many places have some GQ types who simply smile and nod but really do little on the proactive front in easing the slow play issues that happen daily.

Sometimes you have to rattle the cages of the 1-2% of the people who abuse the overall pace of play. It's simple does management have brass ones or parakeet ones.

[Jason Topp]

Bill:

I always thought that Rangers would be more effective if they were placed at trouble spots on the course and helped find balls, or signal balls out of bounds, rather than drive around the course in their carts.  Any thoughts on that approach?

[Phil McDade]

Matt:

Well, there may be some clueless types running public courses, but at my local 9-hole muni, there is often (beyond the one or two guys who mow and rake) one guy doing everything -- taking money at the counter and tee times on the phone, selling beer and hot dogs, announcing who's next on the 1st tee, and the like. There's no way he has the time to enforce speed-of-play issues, even though it's a nine-holer that routes twice back to the clubhouse (holes 4 and 6) where it'd be fairly easy to notice who is behind and who is holding up groups behind them.

They do a decent job of at least reminding folks about pace of play -- signs prominently posted on the doors, reminder cards at the counter. And they run a very good local junior program that I know, from first-hand experience, truly emphasizes to youngsters learning the game their obligations on pace of play. And the few times I've played behind youngsters, they are much quicker -- even with their long and wayward drives! -- than the cart-driving, beer-slugging types who dawdle their way around a course.

Not sure what the answer is...Garland's idea of a discount has some attraction, although hard to enforce and often beyond an individual golfer's control. I've played my local 9-holer in one hour -- first out, by myself, on a fall weekend morning -- and two weeks ago in three hours (unusually slow, but not because of over-booking by the course; just abysmally slow play in front by two groups).