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Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2007, 02:02:29 PM »
John - I'm with you on this one.  It's my observation that many of the courses I've played over the years are over-treed (so to speak), and that the tree removal I've seen done was, for the most part, an improvement. That said, I can think of some examples where trees, as a hazard, make the hole better (off the top of my head, 4 at Merion, 7 and 18 at Aronimink). -Dan
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2007, 02:27:12 PM »
I know my Butler commentary brought on this thread so let me try to defend my comments and add some comments from one who thinks Oakmontation is sometime a good thing.  

In my opinion, it takes a very specific piece of property and layout for Oakmontation to make sense.  Medinah, Olympia Fields and Spyglass for instance cannot be Oakmonted as the trees play a vital role in the playability of the course, the ambiance and the course defense.  On the other hand, courses like Butler and Oakmont, don't need trees to satisfy any of the aforementioned purposes.  (Since I haven't played Oakmont I can't comment on the playability)

For instance, Butler's greens and bunkering act as the primary defense.  The trees that are there are of little aestethic value (both positively and negatively) and the playability is seldom altered by the presence of trees.  Obviously, those trees that do impact the playability will and should remain when considering Oakmontation.

And the comment about the trees being hazards has some merit but on a course like Butler, more often than not, the trees that are there merely stand in the way of another hazard.  Those that are a "hazard" will remain.  How many pivotal hazard trees were removed at Oakmont?  

For better or for worse, from an architectural perspective, the trees were always and continue to be the primary hazard at Medinah, Olympia, etc.  So Oakmonting there is a non-starter.  But at other facilities where this isn't the case....chop away!  

Why do we have to have trees for the sake of having trees?  What do trees way outside the playing lines and in and around other hazards accomplish?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 02:28:11 PM by Ryan Potts »

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2007, 03:26:41 PM »
Shelly,

Just like the bridge issue I try to stay out in front of problems.  I'm saying that I am seeing a dangerous trend start to form with ignorant people shooting from the hip loaded with both barrels because of Oakmont.  Pleople like you and Jeff are on the right track as I recently toured the reno's at Olympia with Jeff and did not see anything close to a wholesale tree removal.

Ryan,

I am happy to see that you do not recommend the same for Medinah as you do Butler.  I would also say that the greens at Olympia are tougher than at Butler by a huge margin.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2007, 03:55:03 PM »
Why do we have to have trees for the sake of having trees?  What do trees way outside the playing lines and in and around other hazards accomplish?

John says they promote shotmaking.

Of course, he's a very forward thinker, making certain the better player is rewarded with both fairer golf and more time to play and live life in general.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2007, 04:05:11 PM »
George,

Please show me where I ever said anything about fairer golf.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2007, 04:20:02 PM »
John, it's a pretty simple leap, even for a simpleton like me, that if a tree enhances shotmaking, that makes it fairer for the better ball strikers and better players in general.

Under your line of thinking, how could it possibly be fair for me to hit it off line and not be penalized on my next shot?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2007, 04:24:44 PM »
George,

Tiger is as better player as there is and even he hits the ball closer without a tree in front of him.  You are lost.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2007, 04:25:27 PM »
John, it's a pretty simple leap, even for a simpleton like me, that if a tree enhances shotmaking, that makes it fairer for the better ball strikers and better players in general.

Under your line of thinking, how could it possibly be fair for me to hit it off line and not be penalized on my next shot?

I think we are getting confusing "a tree" with "a shit load of trees."  

"A tree" is fine when not necessarily part of the design strategy of the hole.  "A shit load of trees" does not need to be there and many of them should be beheaded.

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2007, 04:37:00 PM »
John,

This is getting away from your original post.  Can you name any specific courses that have gone as far as Oakmont (which, by the way, went back to it's original intent) and eliminated all it's trees....c'mon!  

I know here in the Pacific NW we need 3 different permits and a sign off from the Governor to remove a single dead tree...

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2007, 04:44:06 PM »
I read Oakmontation as an effort to take a course back to the way it was originally designed (or close to it), which I think is a good thing.

If there is a massive tree removal taking the country by storm, and I dont know if there is, my assumption is that it has more to do with restoring the course, as close as possible, to the way it was originially designed.  I see that as a positive, we want to play our Dr. M, Raynor and Colt courses the way they were originally designed, not the way they have been altered by the members over the last 100 years.

I guess I just trust those guys more than I do the greens committee in the 50's and 60's and their propensity to plant trees.

Again, this doesnt apply to those courses where the trees were/are an integral part of the design.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2007, 05:19:02 PM »
Just listen next time you are near a tree with another member of your course and come back and tell me if he brings up Oakmont.  Things are fine now...it is the future  that I am concerned about.

I think tree removal is becoming a fad much like minimalism and fescue.

Ed_Baker

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2007, 05:25:34 PM »
JakaB,

Trendy, agreed, but wouldn't you also agree that many older courses were truly overgrown and have benifited greatly from tree removal?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2007, 05:27:20 PM »
You are lost.

Given your perspective on this thread, I'm not at all surprised you feel this way.

I'm also certain that wholesale deforestation of golf courses around the country is pretty far down the list of things to be concerned with, with respect to the future state of the game.

BTW, I wasn't aware that minimalism was such a negative fad, thanks for enlightening me.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2007, 05:28:25 PM »
Just listen next time you are near a tree with another member of your course and come back and tell me if he brings up Oakmont.  Things are fine now...it is the future  that I am concerned about.

I think tree removal is becoming a fad much like minimalism and fescue.

Oakmont was designed as an "inland links", if there even is such a thing, but I'm not debating that. The trees planted later were in contrast with how the course was supposed to play/look/feel. The removal of the trees brought the course back to how it was designed.

Removing trees from courses that weren't designed to play like or as a links course is a much different thing. The trees might fit those courses . . .

-Ted

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2007, 05:50:05 PM »
JakaB,

Trendy, agreed, but wouldn't you also agree that many older courses were truly overgrown and have benifited greatly from tree removal?

Yes, I think tree removal is great.  I also like it when course emulate Augusta and improve conditioning and speed up their greens.  Somebody just needs to speak up before we go overboard.

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2007, 05:51:56 PM »
You are lost.

Given your perspective on this thread, I'm not at all surprised you feel this way.

I'm also certain that wholesale deforestation of golf courses around the country is pretty far down the list of things to be concerned with, with respect to the future state of the game.

That is what people thought about bridges last month.

BTW, I wasn't aware that minimalism was such a negative fad, thanks for enlightening me.

All fads are not negative.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2007, 06:21:32 PM »
John,

First you said this?


I think tree removal is becoming a fad much like minimalism and fescue.

Then you said this in response to George's comment about minimalism being a negative fad?

Quote

All fads are not negative


So as George and I are mere simpletons, am I wrong to say you are equating tree removal with minimalism and implying it isn't a negative fad??

If this is so, where does your beef really lie??

And if its not so, then you sure love to dance around with words more so than Mr. Clinton himself.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 06:22:36 PM by Kalen Braley »

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2007, 06:30:26 PM »
I do not have a beef with current tree removal.  I am mearly warning the general public that we are approaching a slippery slope where trees will start to fall for the wrong reasons.

Andy Troeger

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2007, 06:32:03 PM »


For better or for worse, from an architectural perspective, the trees were always and continue to be the primary hazard at Medinah, Olympia, etc.  So Oakmonting there is a non-starter.  But at other facilities where this isn't the case....chop away!  

Why do we have to have trees for the sake of having trees?  What do trees way outside the playing lines and in and around other hazards accomplish?

Ryan,
Why do we need to chop trees for the sake of chopping trees? If they restrict air flow and/or are purely for decorative purposes then I'd agree with you. Quite frankly if the trees were there before the golf course and the golf course has existed fine with them for many years then I don't see why chopping them would be an improvement.

It is very site dependent. Some golf courses (in addition to the ones you mention where the trees are strategic) have miscellaneous trees. I don't see anything wrong with that.

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2007, 06:32:54 PM »
I do not think that every member of every club who fights tree removal is an idiot.  The success of Oakmont is being used to beat them over the head.  This is the Oakmontation of American Golf.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2007, 06:38:04 PM »
I do not have a beef with current tree removal.  I am mearly warning the general public that we are approaching a slippery slope where trees will start to fall for the wrong reasons.

Well, that's where we differ - we are so far from that slippery slope that it's not even on the radar screen, let alone in sight.

The bridge thing is a clever exploitation, though, I'll admit that.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2007, 06:44:15 PM »
I have no intention of exploiting the tragedy of the bridge collapse but I have had a premonition that a tree will play a vital role in this weeks championship.  This stuff is scary...I hope I am wrong so I can sleep again.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2007, 06:51:14 PM »
I have no intention of exploiting the tragedy of the bridge collapse but I have had a premonition that a tree will play a vital role in this weeks championship.  This stuff is scary...I hope I am wrong so I can sleep again.

John,

If you keep your streak going this week and this really happens your going to have to get a Pyschic Hotline started...   ::) ;D

However, even you must admit that the potential "crisis" with trees getting the axe at golf courses is nowhere even in the same league as the real crisis as it pertains to our nations bridges.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 06:51:45 PM by Kalen Braley »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2007, 07:04:23 PM »
needs to stop.  Tree removal for improved grass growage is one thing but the opening of playing lines will eventually destroy shotmaking as we know it.  I can't see bunkers being the only defense against people who can not either work the ball right, left, high or low.  All I say is think before you chop.

JakaB,

Oakmont had NO interior trees on the golf course when it first opened.

Why would you want to corrupt the original architect's intent ?

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Oakmontation of American Golf..
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2007, 07:59:10 PM »
Pat,

I don't have a problem with Oakmont and what happened there...what I do have a problem with are courses that cut down trees because some simpleton can't break 90 anymore.  You need pretty severe greens and hazards to survive alone...and in truth most classic courses do have that...but few modern do...