Fenimore CC (aka Fenway)

[Mike_Cirba]

I've been spending way too much time doing research on the USGA's site, but it's fun and I'm incorrigible.

Anyway, in the case of Fenway CC, the story I've always heard is that Dev Emmett built a course in 1922 and it wasn't very good so the membership brough Tillinghast in 2 years later and he built the present day course.

Except, the American Guide to Golf listing for 1925 shows that "Fenimore CC" (Fenway's old name) was 27 holes, with 18 at 6400 yards and 9 of 3100.

Ok...I'm thinking...perhaps the club was in a state of transition at this time between the Emmett and Tillie courses.

Except, the American Guide to Golf listing for 1930-31 shows that "Fenimore CC (still going under that name) was still 27 holes, with 18 at about 6400 yards and another nine at 3100.

I've never quite bought the idea that Emmett built a course so bad that Tillinghast had to completely re-do it 2 years later.   Anyone know more of the story??

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

If you take a careful look at the original Tillinghast design reproduced as part of the beautifully drawn survey map of Fenimore that can be found on page 265 of the Tilly biography, Tillinghast: Creator of Golf Courses, you will see that he designed 27 holes.

In the lower right hand corner he defined these as an 18-hole Championship Course and a 9-hole Ladies Course measuring 1,934 yards in length.The holes were a 4,4,3,4,3,3,3,4,3 with a short of 98 and a long of 319 yards.

By the way, this map is dated "July 4th 1924" and is referenced on it as "the course opened on..."

This means that the references to it that you cited are incorrect in distances. For example, the "Championship Course" is listed as being 6,536 yards in length.

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

I should have known to just buy the book.

I'll rectify my error shortly.



Thanks!
Mike

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike, Phil

can you enlighten the completely uninformed a little more on this one. Is there any record left of the Emmett course? Do we know how much of the Tillinghast survey map/design was based on Emmett's work/routing/holes? (Or was Tillinghast given a different piece of property to work on altogether?) If the dates are accurate, it's like club members had time enough to play the Emmett course just about once before deciding to tear it all up and have Tillinghast re-do it, and have it ready to play in very short order. Wow - either a bad course, or a fickle and wealthy membership, or both.

Thanks
Peter

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, Phil

can you enlighten the completely uninformed a little more on this one. Is there any record left of the Emmett course? Do we know how much of the Tillinghast survey map/design was based on Emmett's work/routing/holes? (Or was Tillinghast given a different piece of property to work on altogether?) If the dates are accurate, it's like club members had time enough to play the Emmett course just about once before deciding to tear it all up and have Tillinghast re-do it, and have it ready to play in very short order. Wow - either a bad course, or a fickle and wealthy membership, or both.

Peter,

I don't know, which is why I asked a similar question.

Emmett was a very well respected architect by 1922, with possibly more courses under his belt at that time than any other living architect with the exception of Bendelow and Findlay.

The idea that he could come up with a course that bad (that it was summarily replaced) on what is some really good golfing ground seems to be difficult to believe on the face of it.

I'm betting there's more to the story.

[JMorgan]

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[Peter Pallotta]

Mike
I'm glad to hear our questions were similar; I'd thought you were asking more advanced questions, and mine were dumb ones. The write up in "courses by architect" is -- to me at least -- not very clear. Heavily edited, it reads:

"In 1922, the Club hired Devereux Emmet to design an 18 hole course on the old James Fenimore Cooper estate...[but] the course was...closed and Tillinghast was contacted... Tillinghast was given 240 acres, the topography of which was more rolling and varied than either course at Winged Foot."

From that quote, it sounds like Tillinghast was working on a different piece of property altogether, and if that's the case it seems a little unfair to Emmett, i.e. why didn't they give him the good land to start with, just two years earlier?

Peter

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

Hopefully, Phil will weigh in if he has more details, but I think it was the same piece of land.

James,

Don't be coy...what do you know and when did you know it??    

p.s.   Thanks a bunch for trying.   Damn if I didn't think that was going to be the smoking gun.

[Peter Pallotta]

JMorgan

but architectural fashion couldn't have changed that much in less that 2 years, could it? Or do you mean that perhaps Emmett 'represented the past' while Tillinghast 'the future', at least in the Club's eyes?

Thanks
Peter

[Phil_the_Author]

Hi guys, sorry to take so long in getting back to this (and for not answering the question when I first posted). It's been a long and very exciting day as I will hopefully be able to share tomorrow in a new topic with a major announcement from the Tillinghast Association!

You'll have to wait.

The answer to the above question and to all the suppositions is that, just like Agatha Christie wrote in the Murder on the Orient Express, you all did it... that is, you all are correct and incorrect.

Let me explain.

The Fenimore CC was formed in 1920. The core membership purchased the 40 acre estate of the Baron Eugene Reynal. They would add more property to this, using his elaborate mansion as their clubhouse, and by the spring of 1921 finally have enough land to build an 18-hole golf course and an additional 9-hole short course. They hired Devereaux Emmet, who was then at the height of his popularity and had built many fine courses in the Metropolitan area, to design these.

The courses opened for play in 1922, yet almost immediately the membership began to complain. They had a fine course, but 1922 saw the official opening of the 2 new masterpieces at Baltusrol, the plans announced for what everyone recognized would be 2 incredible courses literally just down the street at Winged Foot, Fresh Meadow which would soon host 2 national championships open just over the bridge on Long Island and another course of great promise opening on the other side of town, the Scarsdale CC, due to open in 1923.

The mebership was jealous and, even though the Emmet course(s) were fine design, they were limited because of the scope of the club's property.

Still, give them credit, they bit the bullet and took the one common denominator in all of the above courses, they were designed by Tilly, and hired him. They next bought more adjacent property so they handed him over 240 acres to work with.

Tilly basically gutted the existing course(s) and started from scratch. I am uncertain if there are any holes or features that are leftover from the Emmet work, but if so it amounts to very little.

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

Thanks for clearing things up.

I'm still buying the book!  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike How can this discussion happen without "Mr Fenway" Geoff being involved?

[JMorgan]

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