[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

I did think of that while posting.  It could be creepy, big brotherish and not for all.

But if what you say is true, I suppose I will recommend to my next client that he name the project "Discount Golf Course." That ought to bring the players out.....

Giant's Ridge once got an offer to become "The Pepsi Challenge at Giants Ridge" which they turned down.

How about being called to the tee as follows:  "Attention Wal Mart Golfers, now on the tee, Dan Kelly!"

[Kalen Braley]

Frankly, I think courses should use tech - like caller ID and data bases, so that when a repeat player calls for a tee time they can call him by name when they answer - the ultimate sign of respect and the opposite of labeling them with a catch all phrase.

Jeff --

I know one "retail golfer" (no offense taken) who gets just a little creeped out every time a "retail establishment" (no offense intended) answers his telephone call using his name.

Rather than answering his calls with creeps-inducing hyperfamiliarity, that retail golfer I know (no names, please!) would much prefer that courses offer him inducements to return more often.

Dan

I will 2nd this one.  Them answering the phone by my name would creep me out as well.  The Safeway stores in California will often do this as well if you use plastic to make your purchase..

[Dan Kelly]

Giant's Ridge once got an offer to become "The Pepsi Challenge at Giants Ridge" which they turned down.

Thank God for small favors.

How about being called to the tee as follows:  "Attention Wal Mart Golfers, now on the tee, Dan Kelly!"

That'd be great -- just as long as they respected my trademark!

[Forrest Richardson]

I'll bet Mike Keiser would never address a bunch of his guests by opening, "Good morning retail golfers, we are happy to have you here..."

One of the greatest cancers of a service business is when customers become something different to the staff behind the scenes than when out in the setting of buying and enjoying. This is not to say that we can't have descriptions for such consumer types — that always works.  I think this term goes a bit deeper than some here may feel. I really do believe it may be used to describe an unknowing, less-than-aware golf consumer — especially when it comes to "good" design or other ambiances.

[Adam Clayman]

One of the greatest cancers of a service business is when customers become something different to the staff behind the scenes than when out in the setting of buying and enjoying.

If I understand you here, Pebble Beach hasn't been negatively affected by the arrogance often exuded by the underpaid employees behind the desk.

With the exception of a few, and one in particular, Casey Reamer, sincerity does shine through, and even sometimes, rewarded.

It is clear that Forrest cannot accept that his premise is flawed as it relates to the term "retail golfer".  I'll go so far as to say that the term is not pervasive save for those reading this board.

Forrest, Where else have you heard this term bandied about outside of the gca.com circle?

[Forrest Richardson]

Adam — I am beginning to hear this in the golf "industry"...at conferences and articles. The most recent was the Keiser re-quote, here. I would not call it widespread, but my suspicion is that it will grow in use. It's Catchy.

I am not sure that I am ready to 100% to hold my premise flawless. There are some good points here to prop up the moniker.

[Dan Kelly]

Seems to me that the expression "retail golfer" merely distinguishes the retail portion of the market (sorry) from the "club golfer" and the "corporate-outing golfer" and the "expense-account golfer."

We all know, don't we, that there are true golfers and true ignoramuses in all of those groups?

[Tim Pitner]

As an enthusiastic patron of Bandon Dunes resort, I was somewhat disappointed in reading Dream Golf that Kaiser paid so much attention to the "retail golfer" (apparently more so re: Bandon Dunes than Pacific Dunes).  Tom Doak said above that he thought Kaiser wasn't dumbing anything down, but when you make generalizations like, "public golfers like elevated tees," I think there is some element of dumbing down going on.  Kaiser's favorite course, NGLA, wasn't built for the retail golfer and I'm hoping Old MacDonald or whatever it gets named won't be either.  

[SB]

When I hear the term "retail golfer", I think of something different.  To me, the retail golfer is anyone who makes a price/value decision when he plays.  The discount golfer is still the retail golfer, he's just a discount retail golfer, just like wal-mart is a discount retailer.  

The non-retail golfer would be those who do not make a standard price/value decision.  That might include resort guests paying $250 for a round of golf on a mediocre course that they wouldn't pay $50 for back home.  It might be people paying $100,000 initiation fee and $20,000 in dues a year for a second club that they rarely play.  Or paying a large amount for a private club that exceeds what they would pay for a superior daily fee course (admittedly this gets tricky because there are other types of "value" there).  

A retail golfer could also be someone looking to join a club.  They have a variety of choices between cost, location, quality, experience, etc.  But, once they are a private club member, they may no longer be a "retail golfer", as the price/value equation gets distorted because the "cost" portion is paid up front, and is not related to actual consumption.  They stop making decisions and now cannot be influenced by any other factors, including price and quality.

By the way, I don't hear the term too often, and mainly by marketing people.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not sure why the term would have negative connotations or people would be divided up into differnt groups.

Retail - to sell at retail; sell directly to the consumer.

For anyone who pays for their golf, be it for private, public, or resort courses.  Or be it a corporate outing, buddy hosting you at his club, or beer-chugging weekend hacks....its all regardless of price and they are all "retail golfers". The same is true for buying clubs, balls, clothing, etc...

I'm not seeing what the issue is here.  Retail is irrespective of price, it only refers to one who is a "end user".  Now if you wanted to talk about "price discriminating golfers" then that would be a different thing, but they still fit under the same umbrella as "retail golfers"

[Daryl David]

As an enthusiastic patron of Bandon Dunes resort, I was somewhat disappointed in reading Dream Golf that Kaiser paid so much attention to the "retail golfer" (apparently more so re: Bandon Dunes than Pacific Dunes).  Tom Doak said above that he thought Kaiser wasn't dumbing anything down, but when you make generalizations like, "public golfers like elevated tees," I think there is some element of dumbing down going on.  Kaiser's favorite course, NGLA, wasn't built for the retail golfer and I'm hoping Old MacDonald or whatever it gets named won't be either.  

While reading the book, I was somewhat amused by the continued use of the term "retail golfer" as they seemed to be friends of Mr. Keiser from Chicago that were flown out to Bandon on private jets.  Sort of his version of a focus group.  You are led to believe they are fellow members of clubs like Chicago, Shoreacres and such.  Not the same image being drawn by this discussion.

[Forrest Richardson]

When will it be Dan Kelly®?

[Scott Weersing]

Seems to me that the expression "retail golfer" merely distinguishes the retail portion of the market (sorry) from the "club golfer" and the "corporate-outing golfer" and the "expense-account golfer."

We all know, don't we, that there are true golfers and true ignoramuses in all of those groups?

I would agree that retail golfer is not as bad as being one of the other terms that Dan has come up with. What would be the name of a golfer who goes out of his way to play a well designed course? I would suggest a "course golfer" or  "GCA golfer".

Another group that Dan did not mention is "senior golfer" who only want to pay the senior rate of $20 for golf on a flat, boring course and will oppose any changes. Fortunately, the "senior golfer" did not discourage Forrest from designing Olivas Links.

[Forrest Richardson]

I asked some people at lunch about this. The general feeling was that "retail golfer" had a belittling ring to it. I believe one comment was that it sounded as if a golfer termed this might settle for just about anything put in front of him/her.

[George Pazin]

Forrest, I'm impressed with your dedication to the eradication of a descriptive term!

I'd say it comes down to trust. If you trust the folks using the term, you see it as merely descriptive in marketing fashion. Conversely, if you've been exposed to one too many overly profit conscious types (how's that for a string of modifiers, Dan), you probably infer negativity into the term.

It's similar to how people view others' posts. If you trust the person, you know when they're joking; if you don't, you get offended and indignant at the drop of a hat. (You refers to all of us here, not Forrest.)

Me, I've met Forrest and trust his own perceptions, though I'd also say many probably use the term innocently (if there is such a thing as innocence in business!).

P.S. Any term can sound belittling, depending on how it's delivered.

[Forrest Richardson]

George — I don't think the term "golfer" is at all bad.

[Craig Sweet]

My sense, from talking to the guys at my muni, is they could care less about descriptions, and more about value for their dollar.  They aren't interested in spending $200 for a round of golf at a place like Bandon, and I applaud them for ignoring the hype.  

They play cheap balls, because, as they put it, "the way I hit it, the cheap ones go just as far", and they buy equipment at the best price than can find...whether its a sale in the pro shop or ebay or from a tv infomercial...

But everyday I see these guys playing golf,laughing and having a good time....they consider themselves "golfers".....the only description necessary...

[George Pazin]

George — I don't think the term "golfer" is at all bad.

My wife might not agree....

[Forrest Richardson]

You're still married!!??

[Pat Brockwell]

I love the retail golfer!  They show up, pay the price, and if they have a good time, they buy a shirt or a hat, have a beer and tell their buddies how much fun they had.  Where would we be without them?  I'll tell you that if they weren't out there loving it, we would all be poorer for it.  They are the people who vote with their feet and pay the debt burden of the best tracks. They are responsible for Pacific Dunes, Bandon Trails and my course, Black Mesa (among many others).  The retail golfer has made me a better superintendent and course operator.  I don't always agree with them, but I always listen.  Giving the retail golfer what they want doesn't mean I can't give a more sophisticated consumer what they appreciate.  I only resent the guy that won't stop bothering me to give him my product for free, or at a loss. Screw him, he can go play a Goat Hills.  The rest of 'em, I love for loving the game, and appreciating what it takes to deliver quality golf.

[Forrest Richardson]

So, Pat, what are the other golfers called? From your description you described "golfers".

Would it be better to just call "Retail Golfers" just "golfers", and the rest, "snooty golfers"?

[Pat Brockwell]

Forrest,
There are basically two types of golfers, good and bad.  The good don't mind paying for what they get, the bad want to screw somebody out of something (ie; something for nothing).  The bad can include the jerk who won't rake a bunker, fix a ball mark or divot. It could be the hack that insists on playing the back tees and forcing everyone else into a five hour round.  The good can include the novice that just has fun but keeps pace and shoots a million.  My personal criteria for the good golfer is have fun and keep up. I'll tee it up with that one any day.

[Forrest Richardson]

I like good and bad. That I buy.

My jury (the six men and six women in my head) is still out on the "Retail Golfer" term. While I appreciate the comments here, I truly believe there is a snob-ism associated with the term. And that is not, I feel, healthy for the game.

[Pat Brockwell]

Snobism is in the "Bad" column.  The good/bad dichotomy fits nicely with the love based/fear based motivational paradigm.  Not very retail based.  In the retail sense, though, one brings a golfer with lofty expectations and high hopes; the other brings the guy expecting to be screwed, and his "get them before they get me" attitude at check in.  Playing for the love of it is good for the game.  I must also admit that I can love playing on a goat track, but I love a great course more.

[Bill Gayne]

I equate retail with "off the`rack," wide distribution, and if applicable "one size fits all."

The opposite is the consumer looking for specialization, custom made, boutique, experiential, and possibly elitist.

I view "retail" as negative because it indicates a consumer that is not discriminating.  

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