Severe/Radical Lies

[Andy Troeger]

Kalen,
To be honest, I think making courses SHORTER neutralizes the longer hitters more than making them longer. Making courses super long if anything does what you say, makes it impossible for everyone else. Granted...Zach Johnson and others don't help that theory, but I think it holds true more often than not.

My point is that as long as golf allows for 14 clubs that all of them should be needed to crown a champion. I don't know the statistic, but what percentage of shots are hit from within 50 yards of the green? Even at the pro level, that's where the winners and losers are really decided.

Long hitters do have an advantage. I don't think they should be catered to more than they are by their natural ability. However, I don't see a point in trying to thwart their ability either.

You mention a lot of other sports. All of those have something in common in that they are team sports. I think that makes a big difference when talking about competition.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,
To be honest, I think making courses SHORTER neutralizes the longer hitters more than making them longer. Making courses super long if anything does what you say, makes it impossible for everyone else. Granted...Zach Johnson and others don't help that theory, but I think it holds true more often than not.

My point is that as long as golf allows for 14 clubs that all of them should be needed to crown a champion. I don't know the statistic, but what percentage of shots are hit from within 50 yards of the green? Even at the pro level, that's where the winners and losers are really decided.

Long hitters do have an advantage. I don't think they should be catered to more than they are by their natural ability. However, I don't see a point in trying to thwart their ability either.

You mention a lot of other sports. All of those have something in common in that they are team sports. I think that makes a big difference when talking about competition.

Andy,

I would agree shorter courses probably nuetralize the longer hitters and brings more people into contention.  This would be a good thing in my mind, but currently the exact opposite is being done.

As for 14 clubs in the bag, just because they are there doesn't mean they need to be proportionately used.  Tiger used his driver once in 72 holes last year at the british and still won.  And many players on tour likely don't use thier long irons very much as its driver short iron/wedge into many par 4s.  

In terms of thrwarting abilities, playing courses with undulating greens thrwats the players with poor putting abilities.  Should the PGA tour go to flat greens to match the flat fairways that you are advocating?

I don't think team sports is really the issue on this one.  A batter facing a pitcher is an individual battle.  A wide reciever going one on one with a defensive back to get open is an individual battle. A defender guarding a 3 point shooter on the perimeter is an individual match-up the vast majority of the time.  

The real issue is trying to create the most competitive environment possible, not reduce it.

[RJ_Daley]

I enjoy a good rumpled fairway as much as the next fellow.  But, like everything else, I feel it can be overdone if contrived.  

As Brad stated, Greywalls is a very good example of rolling, hmpty-dumpty fairways.  But, it is site specific and was necessitated by the terrain.  Like wise at Ballyneal, while they could melt down some of the more extreem humps (which I believe they did in areas) that land is supposed to be like that.  All credit to the architects that met the challenge of used the resource of the rolling land to route and design great golf.

But, this can be taken to an absurd extreem that doesn't work in my opinion.  Moguls ad nauseum, through otherwise gently rolling to flatish terrain becomes goofy, I think.  You see some of that at a few Myrtle Beach courses.  You see it here in the midwest on tighter soils that are contrived.  

In the case of contrived and forced mogul like design-construction, doesn't it become a nightmare of drainage and the architect probably having to come back numerous times to tweak areas that just couldn't be pre-designed to understand the full impact of random drainage across manufactured rolly-polly terrain.  Then you get into the minefield of drain caps and bowls all over the place.  Balls tumbling along, not usually staying on the interesting sidehill, downhill areas, but gathering and collecting on drain caps where the drop is near enough to be in wet pudding like turf.

[Jeff_Brauer]

    ......In football.....many people were fed up with 10-7 defensive struggles so they moved back the kick off spot, created rules to protect QBs, and started strictly enforcing the hands off rules for defensive backs.

......In Hockey, they recently added a whole slew of new rules to make the game more offensive and promote higher scoring........

.......And on the PGA Tour, they use powder puff course set up to make sure the fans don't have to watch 3 over par slug fests, which are the golf equivalent of 10-7 football or 2-1 hockey matches!

[Kalen Braley]

RJ,

I agree 100% with overdone fairways.  And this same principle applies to greens, bunkers, routing, etc.  

Certainly making these a fairway of such type could be done to look natural as well as unnatural.  How good the work is, in my mind, would be mostly related to who was doing the work. Remember the essence of naturalism is not if it was previously there, but if it looked as if it was previously there.

As for examples please consider the following pictures:

This is the landing zone for a big hitter on a par 5.  Prior to these there is undulation in the fairways, just not as extreme as what you see here.  This is very much one aspect of risk/reward in my mind.  Do you challenge this undulating part of the fairway to get home in 2 with the chance of getting an extreme sidehill/downhill/uphill lie?  Or do you stay back a bit and try to hit a longer shot into the green?  The risk is maybe getting a tough lie, but the reward is having a shorter shot into the green.



Another example of a long par 4 where as one looks to get extra length, the fairway becomes more undulated.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree they can be overdone.  But, it doesn't have to be undulations. Imagine a small hog back or hammerhead at about 300 yards that might kick a slightly off line tee shot to the wrong side of the fw for a good approach.

Like Multi tier greens or any other feature, it can be overdone and variety is the key.

The beauty of the hog back, undulations, or other increased contouring at 300 yards plus is that so few golfers are affected that it doesn't pay to build a bunker or pond, unless there naturally.  Shaping a few undulations cost little to build and maintain, about in line with the 0.0003% of golfers who exceed 300 yards on tee shots.

[Andy Troeger]

Kalen,
Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. I'm totally not against undulating fairways at all. My point is that if you've got an otherwise flat fairway, don't go out of your way to start rumpling it at 315 to penalize the few players that can hit it that far. It should be far more random or strategic than that. I like Jeff's suggestion where a slightly offline shot that goes 315 might be kicked in the wrong direction.

I also agree with Jeff when he says variety is the key. If you have one hole where the long ball might end up with an uneven lie, have another hole where if you can hit it a certain distance it might reward you with a flat lie. However, challenge that distance with a bunker or something to make it a risk/reward.

I was on vacation during the Hoylake Open and missed the whole thing. I have reservations as to whether I would have liked a set up that rewarded that kind of play, but I did not watch it and do not really have much room to comment further.

[Kalen Braley]

I agree they can be overdone.  But, it doesn't have to be undulations. Imagine a small hog back or hammerhead at about 300 yards that might kick a slightly off line tee shot to the wrong side of the fw for a good approach.

Like Multi tier greens or any other feature, it can be overdone and variety is the key.

The beauty of the hog back, undulations, or other increased contouring at 300 yards plus is that so few golfers are affected that it doesn't pay to build a bunker or pond, unless there naturally.  Shaping a few undulations cost little to build and maintain, about in line with the 0.0003% of golfers who exceed 300 yards on tee shots.

Well said Jeff,

Your comments go right to the core of the issue, inexpensive additions to the fairway that have little to no impact on the average joe, but get the good players thinking...

Another hole that comes to mind is the short 16th at PacDunes.  The closer you get to the hole, the more screwed you can be with your 2nd shot, unless you drive it on the green.  When I first saw it and played it, I hated it, but after pondering it more and thinking about the many options and risk/reward components, its a genius little hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,
Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. I'm totally not against undulating fairways at all. My point is that if you've got an otherwise flat fairway, don't go out of your way to start rumpling it at 315 to penalize the few players that can hit it that far. It should be far more random or strategic than that. I like Jeff's suggestion where a slightly offline shot that goes 315 might be kicked in the wrong direction.

I also agree with Jeff when he says variety is the key. If you have one hole where the long ball might end up with an uneven lie, have another hole where if you can hit it a certain distance it might reward you with a flat lie. However, challenge that distance with a bunker or something to make it a risk/reward.

I was on vacation during the Hoylake Open and missed the whole thing. I have reservations as to whether I would have liked a set up that rewarded that kind of play, but I did not watch it and do not really have much room to comment further.

Hey Andy,

I would very much agree with your first paragraph and perhaps I didn't explain my point of view effectively enough.  The examples I have seen is where the fairway is gently contoured and rolling and as it gets closer to the hole it gets more extreme in the contonurs and undulations.  It very much flowed, and didn't look abrupt.  It just got more wavy so to speak the father down the fairway you go.

I would also agree with you and Jeff that variety is the key.  As I stated before maybe only 3-4 fairways would be setup like this and integrated into the surronds.

Hoylake in my mind was as Seans says "a cracker" in terms of course mgmt and executing a game plan. Tiger very much took advantage of the dry conditions and removed the "risk" for many of the holes.  He was left with much longer approaches in, but was "rewarded" with avoiding the OB and sod-bunkers where hitting out sideways was not uncommon.

[Andy Troeger]

Kalen,
Fair enough, I'm not surprised we were closer in opinions than it seemed at first.

RJ,
I tend to agree with your take as well. There is a course outside ABQ with rumpled fairways that are just there so they call pretend its Scotland in the desert. They look silly compared to the surrounding landscape and were not even put in very randomly or strategically. They're just there.

Other courses in the midwest like to follow the method of taking a flat site, digging a few ponds, using the fill to create moguls. I was never especially impressed by those courses, but there admittedly was not much there to work with.

Jeff,
I'd be interested on your take now on the mounding you did at the Links at Sierra Blanca. The stuff on the front nine is very abrupt in spots although I believe the fairways themselves were pretty level. I'm thinking of #2, 3, and 7 especially. Some of it appeared to be used to separate holes as the property was pretty tight in that area. The back had more natural features and less of the mounding.