Firestone CC

[Tom Yost]

This week's tour stop is at Firestone CC. The South course is a longtime host for PGA events and seems to garner high respect/rankings from what I can tell.

From the perspective of a casual TV viewer and GCA.com newb, the course seems relatively nondescript with long, straight tree-lined bowling alley fairways and generally unremarkable features.

But I have not played or even seen the course in person and we all know the television is unable to reveal much of a course's character.  So who's played it or at least attended the tournament and been able to walk the course?  What's the buzz about Firestone South?  Please discuss.

Tom

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Firestone South is a wonderful test for the elite players -- it does force many of them to hit driver and they have to all parts of their game at a top level to achieve continued success.

However, it is truly a bore from the design side of things. The fairways are typical of RTJ design style -- ditto the greens although Nicklaus did touch up a few of them (e.g. the 18th, to name just one) when called upon.

I like the course for what it seeks to identify. However, from the highest and strictest test of unique designs Firestone South is more or less quality hamburger when folks on this site are looking for nothing less than filet mignon.

P.S. I still see the par-5 16th as one of America's great long par-5 holes.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I wonder if the clubhouse will be marked as OB this year after the fiasco with Tiger on hole #9 last year?

[Glenn Spencer]

What Matt said is right on. If they were separate and you could join both courses for the same price, I think I would have to take the North. The South tells you how good you are, but the North is a very exciting course. I have not played the West. I think Firestone and NCR have a pretty good argument going for the best overall club in Ohio. Firestone may just have the edge. The range, the water tower and all the great golf make for a pretty memorable experience. If the par 3's were a little more interesting on the South, I think it would take your mind off the lack off quirk.

[Scott Szabo]

Tom:

Firestone South is a wonderful test for the elite players -- it does force many of them to hit driver and they have to all parts of their game at a top level to achieve continued success.

However, it is truly a bore from the design side of things. The fairways are typical of RTJ design style -- ditto the greens although Nicklaus did touch up a few of them (e.g. the 18th, to name just one) when called upon.

I like the course for what it seeks to identify. However, from the highest and strictest test of unique designs Firestone South is more or less quality hamburger when folks on this site are looking for nothing less than filet mignon.

P.S. I still see the par-5 16th as one of America's great long par-5 holes.

Matt,

Curious as to your thoughts about #16 being great.  Never played there, but it seems like your typical three-shot par five without much hope of attacking the green on your second shot.  I suppose it could be difficult with a poor drive, but other than that, not sure what makes it great.  

Scott

[mike_beene]

How much downhill is 16?

[Tommy Williamsen]

The interesting thing about the drive on 16 is that there is a slot that if hit will kick the ball another thirty yards down the fairway.  

I agree with Matt that FS is a great test for elite players , but is less than inspiring archtecturally.  Still there are some wonderful holes on the course.  I find #3 to be a bear and #2 to be a good par five that yield 3's or 6's. Firestone North is easier to score on but is great fun.  Firestone South is a long slog.  although it is different desing wise I find Inverness to be less than inspiring because of the long straight par fours.  The greens complexes at Inverness are, however, more interesting.

[David Stamm]

I believe Tiger's comments in the past about the course, "it's all right there in front of you" probably sums it up.

[astavrides]

From the perspective of a casual TV viewer and GCA.com newb, the course seems relatively nondescript with long, straight tree-lined bowling alley fairways and generally unremarkable features.

Tom

As Feherety said, an aerial shot of the course looks like Allen Iverson's cornrows.

[Matt_Ward]

Scott:

The 16th can have its tee position moved forward when necessary to provide for a second shot possibility for the large hitters.

What makes the hole so demanding is that the pond appears to be right on top of the green -- especially when viewed from the players perspective. The camera angle that CBS generally provides is behind the green and it truly distorts what kind of quality approach you need to make.

There are no cheap birdies at #16.

You also need to keep the tee ball in the fairway because if you get stuck in the rough and can only advance your 2nd shot a certain amount of distance the approach for the 3rd becomes even more problematic.

The Nicklaus five in the '75 PGA's 3rd round has to rate as one of the all-time saves.

Gents:

One of the things I do like about FS is that a few of the long par-4's are quite good -- the 3rd and 4th are a good combo. The mid-range 17th provides plenty of options on the drive and the frontal bunker greenside is a peach.

I have never really liked #18 because of the tree growth on the hole.

I concur with others about the North -- more fun to play and has a good bit more on the hole versatility front.

Candidly, if you ask someone about playing FS and Camargo and that person says he would rather play a majority of golf at the former then you know he sees his golf in an entirely different light than having the opportunity to play one of Raynor's 2-3 best layouts that I have ever played.

[SL_Solow]

Keeping it in the same neighborhood, Firestone South or Canton Brookside?  Incidentally, if you think FS south is a "long slog" now, you should have played it in the 80's with balata and persimmon.  That was a looong golf course.

[Phil Benedict]

I think Firestone South was either the first or one of the first 7000-yard plus par 70's.  In a way, it's interesting that it was built as a par 70 given the trend towards par 72 at the time.

In looking at the stats for the Bridgestone, it ain't a long course anymore for the pros.  Hunter Mahan averaged 336 yards today on the holes where they measured.  Tiger was "only" 326.  Maybe he used a three-wood on one of the measured holes.  It really is a joke how far these guys can hit the ball.

[Tom Yost]

... The camera angle that CBS generally provides is behind the green and it truly distorts what kind of quality approach you need to make....

This is one of my general complaints about televised golf.  I understand why they do it, but it sure makes it hard to get a feel for the hole(s) from the playing perspective.

Tom

[Tim Pitner]

It seems like every year at the WGC event at Firestone, and this year is no exception, there is an incredibly wide range of scores, from mid-60s to a lot of high 70s.  I always thought this had something to do with the fact that it's usually played right after the British Open and has no cut, and players sometimes don't quite give it their all if they're out of it.  But, the wide range of scores occurs on Thursday and Friday too.  

What is it about the course that produces these diverse numbers (a wider range of scores than in your average tournament, I submit, especially considering the limited field is supposed to consist of upper echelon players).

[mike_beene]

Just a guess:with no cut you get the people not playing well going four rounds on what is a tough course if not hitting it solidly(like the Ryder Cup where someone not in form is exposed)Usually the cut solves this problem.And usually tour courses are not all that tough.

[Matt_Cohn]

I think also because it's a limited field event and the week before a major, it's bigger news when a top player shoots a high score. Every week a some top player misses the cut, but it's usually mentioned only in passing, with all of the attention focused on the leaders.

[wsmorrison]

"although it is different desing wise I find Inverness to be less than inspiring because of the long straight par fours. "

Interesting you say that, Tommy.  While I have never seen Inverness Club (one of my best friend's two brothers belong there so I hope to one day) I find that description fits another big Ross course, Aronimink.  It too has terrific greens, is extremely well maintained, a great par 5, a collection of solid if not spectacular par 3s and a few great par 4s.  Yet as a group, the par 4s are rather unmemorable with so many being long, straight holes where the ideal play is down the middle.

[Glenn Spencer]

Keeping it in the same neighborhood, Firestone South or Canton Brookside?  Incidentally, if you think FS south is a "long slog" now, you should have played it in the 80's with balata and persimmon.  That was a looong golf course.

Exactly!! I laugh when I hear a pro say that a course is long. There are no long golf courses any more!!!