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igrowgrass

Tournament Hole Locations
« on: August 02, 2007, 07:10:12 PM »
Most golf courses have a hole location or two on each hole they consider the best location, or a tournament hole location (i.e. Sunday at the Masters, back left on 16.)  I took a new job this past february and our tournament schedule is very limited.  This upcoming week we will be hosting our biggest tournament of the season and it seems most of what would be our best hole location is a left location.  When architects are designing golf courses they do their best to vary the layout.  Do they also consider as to what will be the best hole location for tournament play on greens they design to provide as much shot diversity as possible?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 07:14:14 PM by igrowgrass (Sean Reehoorn) »

Sean Leary

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Re:Tournament Hole Locations
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2007, 07:34:24 PM »
Sean,

Best or toughest? Here is my opinion of the toughest pins you could set Monday (let's see if you agree)

1 Back center
2 Front anywhere
3 Right
4 Back Right
5 Back left
6 Back left
7 Either back left or front center left
8 Back left
9 Back left
10 Front left
11 Back centerin front of the bunker
12 Right front
13 back right
14 back right
15 back right
16 back right
17 Left on the knob between the left and center
18 Front anywhere

Obviously you don't want to set the toughest pins for each hole though. It is interesting that Fazio did back left tiers on both 6 and 9 though, both being par threes on the same side. (Sean is the assistant super at my home course.  He does a fantastic job)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 07:36:52 PM by Sean Leary »

igrowgrass

Re:Tournament Hole Locations
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2007, 07:56:36 PM »
You got a few of them.  #11 is going to be a good one, its right where you said it would be.

Doug Siebert

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Re:Tournament Hole Locations
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2007, 01:29:13 AM »
I was just running through what I consider the toughest pin positions on my home course, and then it occurred to me that I was mostly evaluating them based on the places that leave the hardest putts, rather than the least accessible.  Where I was thinking about accessibility it was because the location I had in mind was near a fallaway slope where an approach that goes to the wrong side (or a first putt that does the same) will fall 20 feet if it goes 1" too far in the wrong direction, even if it is barely turning.  The greens have a lot of slope, mostly back to front, but the locations I had in mind also have a lot of sideslope as well and are about the max slope locations that are pinnable (offering a hell of a lot more break on 4 footers than the pin locations they use on tour)

Given the ability of today's top golfers in terms of distance control and spin control, combined with the distance the of the modern driver and ball making  450 yard par 4s a wedge approach, is the idea of choosing locations based on their accessibility in terms of approach angle or being cut close behind a bunker really appropriate if you are trying to test these guys?  I think it'd be best to find the places that'll give the most difficult putts.  They are going to successfully shoot at the pins no matter where you put them most of the time, but if its in a place with a lot of slope that's going to give them a lot of fits.

Just look at Tiger at Oakmont and Carnoustie.  When the 5 footers have a bit of break to them he misses them once in a while.  Give him a typical PGA tour course where he can hit those hard enough to not give away the hole, he never misses them.  The other guys are a bit more human in their ability to miss straight putts, but its still easier for them than when they have to combine line and speed together instead of just ignoring line because the pins are cut in a flat spot all the time.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Tournament Hole Locations
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2007, 08:35:43 AM »
......When architects are designing golf courses they do their best to vary the layout.  Do they also consider as to what will be the best hole location for tournament play on greens they design to provide as much shot diversity as possible?


Sean,

I theroetically divide the greens like checkerboards and try to get Sunday pins in each location through the course of the course.  Of course, 2 in each would be the "ideal balance" in this regard, but that never happens.  To start with, I usually include a few greens that are so small that anywhere on the green is tough to hit and others that are multi tier and in effect have two or three Sunday pins.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jordan Wall

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Re:Tournament Hole Locations
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2007, 09:09:06 AM »
Sean,

Last time I caddied for you, they had the pin front right on 2 and it seemed like an impossible target.

Then, of course, it was back right the first time I played the course on #3, and behind that tree was really hard.

What about a (way) front pin on 13?
Or, a back left on 16?

Sean Leary

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Re:Tournament Hole Locations
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2007, 11:08:54 AM »
Jordan,

The course is set up tough but fair for the qualifer today. I wish it were firmer, but it should be a good test. I was supposed to caddy for a friend, but had to bail.

PS. I don't like the front pin on 2 for tournament rounds for pace of play reasons. At least it isn't too firm or people would be playing hockey back and forth across that part of the green. I would take 2 over for 36 and run...

Mike Wagner

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Re:Tournament Hole Locations
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2007, 03:13:08 PM »
Sean,

I like to see a balanced mix of front/middleback, even for tournament conditions.  With the Farm being as hard as it is, one would hope for a few hole locations that really reward a good shot.  I would think out there that tee placement is more crucial than most courses because of the difference in difficulty all the way back.

Mike