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Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« on: July 31, 2007, 10:25:24 AM »
Let me start out by saying that I absolutely love Southern Hills, a great Perry Maxwell course, I have played it 3 times now and every time it gets better.

That said, the major championships held there haven't been won by any of the so-called greats of the game. Here is the list below.

1958    USGA Open Championship    Tommy Bolt
1970    PGA Championship    Dave Stockton
1977    USGA Open Championship    Hubert Green
1982    PGA Championship    Ray Floyd
1994    PGA Championship        Nick Price
2001    USGA Open Championship     Retief Goosen

Good names for sure, but no Jack Nicklaus, Tom Watson, Arnold Palmer, etc...

Will Tiger Woods break the chain this year?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 01:29:34 PM by Craig Edgmand »

CHrisB

Re:Southern Hills - Where are the greats?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2007, 10:42:00 AM »
I wonder how many greats of the game have won majors at courses with bermuda fairways and rough?

When I look at that list of winners, I see guys from North Carolina, Oklahoma and Alabama; and two guys from the south of Africa. Only Dave Stockton (California) is from a place where bermuda isn't a dominant grass.

Tiger Woods hasn't won a major on bermuda yet either. Wouldn't put it past him, of course, but I probably wouldn't put my money on him either.

Sam Morrow

Re:Southern Hills - Where are the greats?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2007, 10:47:55 AM »
While the great names aren't up there I don't care. The way I see it is that no matter what the best player usually wins that week, regardless of the golf course.

Chris_Clouser

Re:Southern Hills - Where are the greats?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2007, 10:51:50 AM »
Craig,

To answer your question, No Tiger will not win.  To my knowledge he has not won on a Maxwell course to date.  The biggest reason is that his yardage advantage is negated (as is that of other longer hitters).  The shorter and mid-length par fours allow the field to stay in range and allow the shorter hitters who shape shots and don't have to bomb the ball to stay in the tournament.  Tiger will probably be in the Top 5, but I would take the field when the PGA comes to town.  Also the top putters are almost always in contention at Southern Hills because of the greens.    

As for the greats, Floyd, Price and Goosen I think are among the best in their generations so there is no black eye in my opinion there.  But as for Nicklaus, Palmer and Watson.  I don't know what to say.  Perhaps the 58 Open was before those guys.  Palmer had his chances at the 70 PGA.    I think something you see at Southern Hills is that guys that can be really streaky can go nuts there as the course will allow for a low number if one is really on their game.  And guys like Bolt, Floyd and Price fit that niche.  I don't know that the approach that players like Hogan, Nicklaus and Woods have to the tournament works on that style of course.  

I have no idea who I would pick, but someone like Zach Johnson or Luke Donald would be a good choice in my mind.  I think their games suit the course very well.  And who knows, perhaps Goosen can once again find the magic in Tulsa.  Another guy to look out for would be Hunter Mahan.  He's played a few Maxwell courses and knows how to putt the greens.  Plus he is hot right now, but just hasn't broken through lately.  

I think the stuff about grasses is overrated.  I believe Tiger has won at Doral and I was under the impression that they have bermuda.  
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 10:56:36 AM by Chris_Clouser »

CHrisB

Re:Southern Hills - Where are the greats?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2007, 11:40:55 AM »
Chris,

As you know, bermuda overseeded with rye played to soft greens (Doral) is much different than pure bermuda played to greens set up for major championships.

I think we'll see that in a couple of weeks (unless it rains a lot). Could be wrong, but I think a lot of guys will struggle with the bermuda roughs, both on the approaches and especially around the greens if they get fast and firm.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Where are the greats?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2007, 11:43:59 AM »
Personally, I think that list of champions is rather impressive

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Where are the greats?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2007, 02:52:17 PM »
I think its a bit of a loaded premise

How many majors are held on Bermuda courses??

And Tiger has won more than his fair share of tournies at Doral and Bay Hill....

Matt_Ward

Re:Southern Hills - Where are the greats?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2007, 03:01:12 PM »
Craig:

I've played SH also a few times over the years and have to say it's the kind of course which levels the playing field from those who simply bomb the ball and proceed from there.

The turning points on many of the holes force players to shape shots in order to get the preferred playing angles.

No doubt Tiger can win but this year's PGA is really wide open in terms of the type of player who can be competitive and ultimately hold the Wannamaker Trophy on Sunday evening.

Chris Kurzner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Where are the greats?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2007, 12:28:02 PM »
Didn't Nicklaus win at Dallas Athletic Club back in the 1960's?  I'm guessing that the greens were bermuda back then, but that is strictly a WAG.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Where are the greats?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2007, 12:34:32 PM »

5 out 6 the previous six majors held at Southern Hills were won by the first round leader. Only Dave Stockton did not win wire to wire.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?articleID=070804_2_PP46_hWant74441

The weather is going to be absolutely brutal!!  The are shooting for triple digits the first two days and then cooling to 99 for the weekend.


Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2007, 04:51:23 PM »
No.

I'll stick to my earlier, spring prediction that this year's last two major venues -- Carnoustie and SHills -- aren't necessarily to Tiger's liking. For some reason (all speculative guessing on my part), I think Tiger gets a certain vibe about courses, and either really likes them or doesn't necessarily care for them. I'd put Augusta National, Pebble Beach, Muirfield Village, and Firestone (among others) in the former; SHills strikes me as one of the latter.


Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2007, 06:01:38 PM »
According to The Weather Channel, Tulsa's temps will be:

Thursday -- 100
Friday -- 100
Saturday -- 101
Sunday -- 98

YIKES!

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2007, 06:17:02 PM »

It ain't no dry heat either.  :-[


Jay Flemma

Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2007, 06:29:47 PM »
Yeah, everybody is warning me not to wear all black...

Pat Brockwell

Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2007, 07:43:52 PM »
Jay, You look good in black, go for it.  Tulsa's climate is great for shade trees, you'll be fine, don't forget to hydrate. (If this sounds a little gay it's because of the soy I put in my morning smoothie, phyto-estrogen you know).

Jim Nugent

Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2007, 12:32:40 AM »
No.

I'll stick to my earlier, spring prediction that this year's last two major venues -- Carnoustie and SHills -- aren't necessarily to Tiger's liking. For some reason (all speculative guessing on my part), I think Tiger gets a certain vibe about courses, and either really likes them or doesn't necessarily care for them. I'd put Augusta National, Pebble Beach, Muirfield Village, and Firestone (among others) in the former; SHills strikes me as one of the latter.


Torrey Pines might be in the former.  Any bets on who wins next year's U.S. Open?  

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2007, 02:10:00 AM »
What are the greens like at SH?  Do they have a lot of slope or are they of the "very fast but very flat" type?  I'm starting to form a theory based on the last few years that Tiger can't miss when he can putt the short ones hard enough to not give away the hole, but once he's aiming outside the hole he's going to miss some and negate the huge advantage he normally has over the field in the putts under 10 feet.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2007, 07:44:10 AM »

Doug,

          Even though the greens have been tamed somewhat for the faster green speeds (most noticeably 9 and 18) they still have plenty of slope and movement in them.


Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2007, 08:40:21 AM »
No.

I'll stick to my earlier, spring prediction that this year's last two major venues -- Carnoustie and SHills -- aren't necessarily to Tiger's liking. For some reason (all speculative guessing on my part), I think Tiger gets a certain vibe about courses, and either really likes them or doesn't necessarily care for them. I'd put Augusta National, Pebble Beach, Muirfield Village, and Firestone (among others) in the former; SHills strikes me as one of the latter.


Torrey Pines might be in the former.  Any bets on who wins next year's U.S. Open?  

Jim:

I think Tiger's ready for another big run of majors starting next year. One look at major venues for the next several years shows several that he's done very well on, including TPines.


Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2007, 10:00:07 AM »
Just as long as he either ties or breaks Jack's Majors record around the 2012 PGA Championship... 8) 8) 8) ;D

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2007, 11:14:14 AM »
I have always thought Scott Hoch talks a lot of sense  ;D

"You know there are some golf courses that just don't set up right. I mean I don't know if there is one for Tiger, but if you look at his scores around here, they're not that good."

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2007, 06:39:32 PM »
With that kind of weather/heat anything could happen.  I'd have to guess that they will have to water the hell out of the FWs and greens to keep them alive, so perhaps it might play a wee soft.  

Didn't Tiger come out with his "stinger" when they last played there?  Will the course reward a putter more than a bomber?  Yet ironically, it was a putting debacle on the last hole of regulation the last time...  Stricker is still putting streaky, but really good when he is on...

Jay, my pal Randy still cracks up regularly and tells guys around here about your quip that "you just don't have enough estrogen", when playing that near island hole at True Blue.   ;D  If I were you, I'd go "Bedouin" and wear light clothed white robes, with a kufiyya-cloth and 'agal-rope on my head, and nothing underneath for the breeze...   :o

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2007, 12:45:37 AM »

Doug,

          Even though the greens have been tamed somewhat for the faster green speeds (most noticeably 9 and 18) they still have plenty of slope and movement in them.




It certainly didn't appear so watching some of it on Friday and Saturday.  I never saw a single putt that approached a 90* break, many of them barely broke a foot or two which is pretty much flat as far as I'm concerned when the greens are stimping at major championship speeds (maybe not quite as fast as they'd have liked due to the heat, but certainly faster than what most of us play on day in day out)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Where are the greats?
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2007, 07:12:38 PM »
To answer your question, No Tiger will not win.  To my knowledge he has not won on a Maxwell course to date.  The biggest reason is that his yardage advantage is negated (as is that of other longer hitters).  The shorter and mid-length par fours allow the field to stay in range and allow the shorter hitters who shape shots and don't have to bomb the ball to stay in the tournament.  

Looks like there's some crow eatin' to be done 'round here... :)

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Southern Hills - Bring on Tiger!
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2007, 07:28:55 PM »
Just as long as he either ties or breaks Jack's Majors record around the 2012 PGA Championship... 8) 8) 8) ;D
I am thinking that he will be past Jack by then although if he keeps the 2007 pace of 1 per year then you will be there for the tie.

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