Gary Player's design business

[Kerry Gray]

Gary Player's golf course designs came up in conversation today with a friend.
I am fortunate enough to travel frequently to Asia and I have played three of his design firm's courses.
Kau Sai Chau in Hong Kong. Has some very good holes along with a few that are too hard. But overall GOOD.
Zaoquing in China. Could have been better but not bad.
Ria Bintan in Indonesia. I thought this was quite good including a very good short par 4 and solid 3's. Good use of the land and strategy. I enjoyed it more than the Nicklaus course down the street which was typical Jack.

I understand Gary's firm is building something in Canada as we speak.
So who does Gary's design work?
Anyone?

[Tim Pitner]

Mr. Player told me who his designer is, but I gave Gary my word I wouldn't disclose his name.  

[Dan Leary]

This is one of those threads where there's no need to say anything because the title explains fully and exactly what the poster is asking about -- his designs are just about "business."

[Dan_Callahan]

Don't know who the designer is, but I hope it's someone new since Player did the second course at Lyman Orchards in Connecticut. I have played some pretty average courses over the years, but there are only two that I would never pay to play again. The Player course at Lyman Orchards is one of them. An awful design. Humps and bumps everywhere. Forced layups. Throw in some unbelievably bad maintenance and very slow play and it's a wonder they are still open, some 13 years the course was built.

[Philip Gawith]

Dan, for post number two, that is pretty elliptical. I thought Kerry's initial post was straight-forward in what it was seeking, but you seem to be seeing something I missed. Why don't you spell it out, just so there are no misunderstandings.

[Matt_Sullivan]

Kerry

I too have played a couple of Player courses out in Asia. Ria Bintan is particularly good and has some spectacular holes. It's probably the best course on the island, ahead of other offerings by Nicklaus, Norman and IBF.

Given Player's apparently poor rep for course in the US, I wonder if he has different design associates in different parts of the world. A little like Greg Norman, whose Asia and Australia work -- assisted by Bob Harrison -- is generally more highly regarded than his US work, where Bob Harrision has only helped out occasionally, if at all (I think maybe at Sugarloaf?)

[B. Mogg]

His design associate (and lead designer in his office) on his Asian work used to be Phil Jacobs, who has now left and is designing under his own banner.

I believe he has design offices in the US and SA.

Not sure what his design style is, since I have seen many different looks, but the look he seems to hang his hat in Asia on is pot bunkers so sharp they look like they were cut out with a scalpel.

[Forrest Richardson]

Jeff Lawrence, ASGCA, is one of the senior designers at Player. Jeff used to work with Fazio. He was briefly on his own before joinging Player.

http://www.asgca.org/members/profile.cfm?ID=104

[Kerry Gray]

Forrest, Matt et al.
Thanks for the info.

Matt, I agree Ria Bintan is very good. I was no fan of the Norman course. I found some holes on the "Ian Baker Finch" course interesting. Good use of fairway contours.

Player's work is likely not all from one designer, even in Asia you see diversity in the style and approach. But some of the work is good and I wanted to know who was responsible for it.

Considering how severe the land is on Kau Sai Chau (it a small island) in Hong Kong, I think the two courses built there are very good. Anyone else seen it?

Mr Leary, thank-you for the lesson in capitalism. A staggering revelation.  

[Dan Herrmann]

Player has two that I know of in metro-Philly:  The ACE Club and the TPC at Jasna Palana.   Honestly, I haven't heard much about either.

The ACE club is primarly a corporate type club.

[Brad Tufts]

TPC Jasna Polana was a decent layout, although nothing too spectacular.  There were a few fun holes at the end, 16 is a short 4, 17 is a nice over-water par 3 with a wild undulating green, and 18 is a downhill par 5 with an interesting angled green.

However, the best part of TPC JP is the beautiful estate home-turned clubhouse, and the sprawling grounds that include several guest houses where the staff used to live.  The great house is very interestingly landscaped, and looks like something out of a movie set.

The only others I've played are the Holly course at Pinewild in Pinehurst, and River Run in the Ocean City, MD area.  Both were solid, though not particularly exciting.

[Doug Sobieski]

Didn't Warren Henderson do most of the design work at the ACE Club? That's what I seem to recall.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

His course here on Kiawah Island, Cougar Point, was just named "Golf course or the year" by the South Carolina Golf Course Owner's Association.  That means it will be be in the running for Course of the Year by the National Golf Course Owner's Association.  Plus, it's held 4 1/2 stars in Golf Digest "Best Places to Play" longer than any other course on the island next to The Ocean Course (which has a 5 star rating).

[Ray Richard]

Some early Gary Player courses were done with golf architects Karl Litten and Jeffrey Myers.

[Mike_Cirba]

Didn't Warren Henderson do most of the design work at the ACE Club? That's what I seem to recall.

Doug,

That's correct, although I'm not sure if Henderson is still associated with Player.

Player also used Tim Freeland for a period, including TPC Jasna Polana.

I would say about the "Gary Player" courses I've played that they are the best of their kind I've ever seen.  

[George Pazin]

His course here on Kiawah Island, Cougar Point, was just named "Golf course or the year" by the South Carolina Golf Course Owner's Association.

I had the good fortune of joining Mike for a round here 4 years ago and I really enjoyed the course quite a bit. Barney will hate me for saying it, but I thought it was a good bit more fun to play than Osprey Point, the Fazio course at the resort.

As for the original post, wouldn't it seem logical that Mr. Player's design firm would utilize different teams in different regions?

[Tim Pitner]

Has anything been done to Cougar Point in the last several years?  When I was at Kiawah (7-8 years ago), Cougar Point, rightly or wrongly, was considered the 4th course on the island, behind the Ocean, Turtle Point and Osprey.  We didn't play it.  

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Has anything been done to Cougar Point in the last several years?  When I was at Kiawah (7-8 years ago), Cougar Point, rightly or wrongly, was considered the 4th course on the island, behind the Ocean, Turtle Point and Osprey.  We didn't play it.  

Gary Player got a "mulligan" back in 1996 when he came in and redesigned what was "Marsh Point."  It changed so much we changed the name to Cougar Point.  The reason it has the "4th course" reputation is that is doesn't have a grand clubhouse like the other courses.  However, it's held a Golf Digest "Best Places to Play" 4 1/2 star rating longer than Turtle and Osprey (since 2002).  A new clubhouse is planned in the next year or so...

[Mike Hoak]

In the DC area, Player's firm is responsible for the design of Rasberry Falls--a popular upscale daily-fee out in Leesburg, Virginia.  Tim Freeland was the lead person on that project.  He has since left the Player group to start his own shop.

Interestingly, the same ownership group that built Rasberry Falls opened a new course out in Woodbridge, VA named Old Hickory.  Rather than going with Player's firm again, they hired Freeland to do it.  Pictures of that course are available on Frank Pont's golfarchitecturepictures.com website.

[Mike_Cirba]

In the DC area, Player's firm is responsible for the design of Rasberry Falls--a popular upscale daily-fee out in Leesburg, Virginia.  Tim Freeland was the lead person on that project.  He has since left the Player group to start his own shop.

Interestingly, the same ownership group that built Rasberry Falls opened a new course out in Woodbridge, VA named Old Hickory.  Rather than going with Player's firm again, they hired Freeland to do it.  Pictures of that course are available on Frank Pont's golfarchitecturepictures.com website.

Mike,

How is Raspberry Falls?   I've often been tempted to get there because it did seem a bit different from other courses I've seen from the Player group.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Warren Henderson is now associated with Nick Price design.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Greg Cameron]

Mr. Player's team is indeed building 18 and probably 36 holes in the small city of Cranbrook,B.C.,located in the southwest corner of our province.Some superb skiing and boarding to be found in the winter,now golf in the summer so my guess would be 2nd 18  linked to real estate sales.Gorgeous country,good economics for the area, and maybe Mr.John Morrison??(of aberdeen golf) could enlighten us re the Player course and Aberdeen's new  Carleton-Cook design they are building in Cranbrook as well......Greg

[Jimmy Chandler]

How is Raspberry Falls?   I've often been tempted to get there because it did seem a bit different from other courses I've seen from the Player group.

Mike --

Raspberry is one of the more interesting courses in the DC area, but having played it several times over the past few years, I've come to the conclusion it's not worth the time/cost to play more than once or twice.  It does have several good-to-great holes, and if they would do a better job with conditioning and pace-of-play, I would change my assessment.

Raspberry is closest to a true links *design* I've ever played on an inland course, but management often over waters the landing areas short of the greens, making ground approaches problematic.  It's cart golf, and it often plays dreadfully slow.  And several holes are very ho-hum.  And once I got to play real links golf (Bandon), my opinion of Raspberry faded quite a bit.

On the plus side are some interesting and massive bunkers, the greens have a lot of slope, and it has an unusual routing -- almost circular.  The 10th hole is one of the best par 4s I've ever played, and I really like all the holes in the stretch of 10-13.