News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« on: July 30, 2007, 10:10:22 AM »
In his book, "Scotland's Gift Golf" Macdonald quotes from an agreement he drew up in 1904 in contemplation of the creation of NGLA:

     "Any golfer conversant with the golf courses abroad and the best we have in America, which are generally conceded to be Garden City, Myopia, and the Chicago Golf Club......."

From what you know of golf architecture in America at this time (1904) do you agree with Macdonald's assessment of those three courses as the three best in America?

If so, why?

If not, why not?

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2007, 10:20:56 AM »
Tom,

I don't mean to take this off topic at all and I haven't had the pleasure of playing any of the courses listed, but I'd like to add the following . . .

Having grown up on LI, Garden City has intrigued me more than just about any other course I've ever read about, second probably only to Fishers Island . . . I've been through the course profile on this site a number of times and the more often I look at it, the more sure I become about how great it really must be. The blending of fairway-to-green has always interested me, and I just have a feeling that the course is just a great example of most things I love in GCA.

I'm looking forward to the responses here as I hope to learn a little more about Garden City Men's Club.

-Ted

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2007, 10:38:41 AM »
Well, let's see, in 1904 we had 31 associated clubs and 257 allied clubs in the USGA.  Associated clubs other than the three mentioned included St. Andrew's (Yonkers), Newport CC, Shinnecock Hills, The Country Club, Essex County CC, Nassau CC, Euclid, Englewood, Baltusrol, Apawamis, Tuxedo, Morris County CC (pre-Raynor), Onwentsia (which CBM disdained), Ekwanok, Albany CC, Atlantic City CC, Knollwood CC...

Is Chicago better than Shinnecock Hills pre-Flynn?  Country Club better than Myopia?  Ekwanok or Newport better than Garden City?



 

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2007, 10:40:51 AM »
Hmmm...  need to think about that one, Tom.  

Edit:
The only one I would argue with would be Chicago.  
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 07:10:55 PM by JMorgan »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2007, 10:56:08 AM »
In considering this topic one must remember that Chicago was not the present course but rather a far inferior one at a different site.  I do not believe it was in the class of Garden City or Myopia or several others existing at the time.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2007, 11:07:52 AM »
Ted,

As you suspect, Garden City is truly a special American course.  Having had the privilege to play it several times over the past 5-6 years, I have really come to appreciate just how great it really is.

What is interesting about GC is that there really isn't one feature that jumps out at you when you first play it.  Like you mentioned, there is the seemless transition from fairway to green on several holes.  This particular feature which may seem simple, adds a lot to the strategy and options for the golfer.  For one thing, we don't often see it on most courses, and for another, it's not as easy as it would appear.

Another special feature of GC are its bunkers.  They come in all different shapes, sizes and styles.  I can't think of another course that has such a varied selection of bunkers.  A couple of the truly penal cross bunkers in the fairways of hole #10 and #17 have been rendered less so by technology...but every once in a while, if the wind and weather are bad enough, they can sneak up on you.

The whole experience of playing GC is like taking a trip back in time.  The clubhouse and golf shop are quite modest and have a aura of yesteryear.  What I love about GC is that there is no fussiness or pretentiousness about the place.  It is all about good golf, camaraderie, and guys who enjoy the game.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2007, 11:43:26 AM »
Ted,

As you suspect, Garden City is truly a special American course.  Having had the privilege to play it several times over the past 5-6 years, I have really come to appreciate just how great it really is.

What is interesting about GC is that there really isn't one feature that jumps out at you when you first play it.  Like you mentioned, there is the seemless transition from fairway to green on several holes.  This particular feature which may seem simple, adds a lot to the strategy and options for the golfer.  For one thing, we don't often see it on most courses, and for another, it's not as easy as it would appear.

Another special feature of GC are its bunkers.  They come in all different shapes, sizes and styles.  I can't think of another course that has such a varied selection of bunkers.  A couple of the truly penal cross bunkers in the fairways of hole #10 and #17 have been rendered less so by technology...but every once in a while, if the wind and weather are bad enough, they can sneak up on you.

The whole experience of playing GC is like taking a trip back in time.  The clubhouse and golf shop are quite modest and have a aura of yesteryear.  What I love about GC is that there is no fussiness or pretentiousness about the place.  It is all about good golf, camaraderie, and guys who enjoy the game.

Jamie,

Thanks for the above . . .
How did you find the course in terms of difficulty relating to your handicap?
I really enjoy a "no fuss" type of place. GC seems to this outsider like the kind of place that is simply classy, with no need for "show" or "display".

-Ted

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2007, 11:44:01 AM »
In considering this topic one must remember that Chicago was not the present course but rather a far inferior one at a different site.  I do not believe it was in the class of Garden City or Myopia or several others existing at the time.

Interesting.  From the historical stuff I read while attending the 2005 Walker Cup at Chicago Golf Club, I thought the course was built in its current location by MacDonald but completely remodeled later by Raynor.  Was there an earlier course built elsewhere by someone other than MacDonald?

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2007, 11:47:28 AM »
The statement made in 1904 would have preceeded Travis' extensive changes at Garden City which were complete by the 1908 Amateur.  In Chicago only Onwentsia, Glen View and and Chicago Golf would have been considered among the better courses at the time.  All have since been improved significantly which goes to MacDonald's central point that GCA in America needed a significant upgrade at that time.  

I'm interested in hearing about other candidates for best course in the USA in 1904.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2007, 12:06:24 PM »
Ted,

In terms of difficulty, GC can vary day to day or hour to hour depending on the weather.  I usually play the course during the Travis Invitational, the 3rd week of May, and the weather and wind for whatever reason, is never all that good.  I would suspect throughout the year that the wind plays the greatest part in affecting scoring from day to day.

On a normal day with a slight breeze, I find that I can play near my HDCP at GC most rounds.  If I'm playing quite well, and under par score is not out of the question.  However in the weather that I've played more often than not, the normal par of 73 can increase to 76 or more for the field on that particular day.  This year for instance, during the Friday qualifying round, the weather was: Temp of low-mid 50's, occasional showers, and winds of 15-20 mph. :P  

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2007, 12:09:03 PM »
In considering this topic one must remember that Chicago was not the present course but rather a far inferior one at a different site.  I do not believe it was in the class of Garden City or Myopia or several others existing at the time.

Interesting.  From the historical stuff I read while attending the 2005 Walker Cup at Chicago Golf Club, I thought the course was built in its current location by MacDonald but completely remodeled later by Raynor.  Was there an earlier course built elsewhere by someone other than MacDonald?

I'm certainly not an expert on Chicago Golf having never been there, but I have had an interest in it much like Ted with Garden City.  

My understanding is there was originally a nine hole layout at a different site (later Belmont Golf Club - current location of the Downers Grove Golf Course) completed in 1892.  The club moved to it's current site in Wheaton around 1894.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2007, 12:11:04 PM »
Ted,

In terms of difficulty, GC can vary day to day or hour to hour depending on the weather.  I usually play the course during the Travis Invitational, the 3rd week of May, and the weather and wind for whatever reason, is never all that good.  I would suspect throughout the year that the wind plays the greatest part in affecting scoring from day to day.

On a normal day with a slight breeze, I find that I can play near my HDCP at GC most rounds.  If I'm playing quite well, and under par score is not out of the question.  However in the weather that I've played more often than not, the normal par of 73 can increase to 76 or more for the field on that particular day.  This year for instance, during the Friday qualifying round, the weather was: Temp of low-mid 50's, occasional showers, and winds of 15-20 mph. :P  

The fact that wind is often a factor only makes me more of a fan . . .

-Ted

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2007, 12:12:51 PM »
There is some conflict about the dates at Chicago Golf.  Most think the original 9 holer in Belmont opened in 1993 and they moved to the current site in Wheaton 1895.  MacDonald also claimed in Scotland's Gift that there were 18 holes at the original Belmont site but there is no independent evidence to corroborate that.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2007, 12:16:19 PM »
There is some conflict about the dates at Chicago Golf.  Most think the original 9 holer in Belmont opened in 1993 and they moved to the current site in Wheaton 1895.  MacDonald also claimed in Scotland's Gift that there were 18 holes at the original Belmont site but there is no independent evidence to corroborate that.  

This is the history as stated on the Downers Grove Park District website as well...

"1893 - During the spring, Macdonald added another nine holes, making Belmont the site of the first 18-hole course in the United States. In July, the Chicago Golf Club (at Belmont) was granted a charter by the State of Illinois."


http://www.dgparks.org/catalog.cfm?dest=dir&linkid=2261&linkon=subsection

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2007, 12:48:26 PM »
We don't know much about those three courses as they existed in 1904.

But we do know that it was only Myopia that was not significantly changed later.

Which suggests something about how they would be ranked circa 1904.

Bob

Peter Pallotta

Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2007, 12:57:33 PM »
For what it's worth, Tom's question sent me back to some old articles I'd saved: one from Henry Leach in 1912, and one from Horace Hutchinson in 1914, and both about their time spent in America on golfing tours. Here are snippets from those articles, that seem to me to parallel Macdonald's views.

Leach:

"From what I saw I came to the conclusion that the golf courses of the East were much in advance of those of the West. The Chicago course [in Wheaton] was the best I saw out West… I was astonished at its quality, and most particularly the excellence of its putting greens…After
leaving Chicago I did indeed encounter some better greens and marvelled more and more. At some of the courses in the Boston district, notably at Brookline and Myopia, they were
marvellous, and again at Garden City they were magnificent…

[Leach goes on to say that, while America had nothing to learn from Britain re: excellent greens, the same couldn't be said for fairways: “indeed, the only course on which I found a fairway which was something like our best was at Myopia.” He also suggest many courses would benefit from more bunkers.]

…Glen View is one of the prettiest courses I have seen…Onwentsia might be a most excellent course, but it stands most sadly in need of another hundred bunkers, and a hundred and fifty would do it no harm… Like every other golfer in my own country I had heard very much of Myopia and expected so very much of it that I was inclined at first sight of the course to be a little doubtful…But it grew on me in the shortest possible acquaintance. Shots have to be placed
here as hardly anywhere else in America, and there can be no doubt about the scientific nature of the course. It is a real test, a first-class one, and next time I cross the ocean I shall hope for a closer acquaintance with it. Garden City seemed a very good test also, but I had not time to study it properly. The National Links was the last course that I visited. I went on a Sunday and preferred to walk over it slowly and thoughtfully rather than play upon it, for I know
intimately all the holes that have served as models for those that have been made here. I admire immensely the earnestness of the promoters of this great enterprise, their knowledge, their skill and their determination. I wish for their sakes it were possible to realize to the full the dream that they had at the beginning, but is it ? However, the course is different from any other in America, it is most gloriously situated, and it must always be a great pleasure to play upon it."

Hutchinson

"Thence we went on by night, a sixteen hours' journey, to Boston, where Charlie Macdonald, the creator of the National Golf Links of America, met us. Immediately on arrival I started out for the Myopia Club, where Macdonald and I beat T. Stephenson and Herbert Leeds. The latter is the constructor of the Myopia course, and for its construction deserves no little credit. From what I have seen of American courses I put the National Golf Links first and this Myopia second, a very good second." (An aside: Hutchinson mentions -- it seems to me favourably -- that NGLA could and did irrigate its green and fairways during dry spells).

Peter


JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2007, 02:11:22 PM »
We don't know much about those three courses as they existed in 1904.

But we do know that it was only Myopia that was not significantly changed later.

Which suggests something about how they would be ranked circa 1904.

Bob

Bob,

I would have to politely disagree that we don't know much about Garden City and Chicago before or around 1904.   I could be misguided though.  What particulars do you think are missing from the histories?

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2007, 02:24:02 PM »
JMorgan -

My comment was an aside. I don't know what we don't know about the course histories.

My point is that only one of the three course from 1904 remains largely unchanged. Which suggests pretty strongly that people thought more highly of it than the other two.

Bob  

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2007, 02:27:58 PM »
JMorgan -

My comment was an aside. I don't know what we don't know about the course histories.

My point is that only one of the three course from 1904 remains largely unchanged. Which suggests pretty strongly that people thought more highly of it than the other two.

Bob  

Gotcha!  ;)

TEPaul

Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2007, 02:45:21 PM »
I think it's pretty safe to say GCGC and Chicago GC in 1904 were not exactly the courses we know today but essentially Myopia was without quite as many bunkers-----a few of which have not been put back (and probably shouldn't be).

Bobcee, I have a traditional yellow and red Myopia cap with your name on it.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 02:47:58 PM by TEPaul »

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2007, 02:47:21 PM »
Peter,

Did Leach and Hutchinson's visits correspond to when they wrote the articles, i.e. 1912 and 1914 respectively?  Where might one find those article's?  Thanks.  

I posted the 1939 aerial of Onwentsia recently.  It had markedly changed from the course that hosted the early championships.  We don't know who was responsible for the changes but I recently became aware that Tom Vardon was the pro there in the teens.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

TEPaul

Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2007, 02:58:06 PM »
BobC:

Did you notice in that 1912 or 1914 Henry Leach quotation above he used the word "scientific"?

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2007, 03:21:58 PM »
Tom -

The Myopia logo is the best. The fox head and the French horn. Be still my heart.

The reference to "scientific" is interesting. I take Leach to mean that Myopia was manufactured vs. links courses that are "natural". Myopia is "scientific" in the sense that its features were carefully planned. Unlike TOC which is natural. Disagree?

Re: the greatness of Herb Leeds: By 1914 Myopia had been around for about two decades, hundreds of new courses had been built in the US and Hutchinson still thought it as in a virtual dead heat with NGLA for the best course in the US.

Let me beat the Herb Leeds drum again. He was decades ahead of anyone else in the US when he did Myopia. And Palmetto too. The first two good courses in the US.

Leeds may have been a bit of a nutcase, but he is easily the most under-appreciated of the early architects.

Bob

TEPaul

Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2007, 03:43:02 PM »
Bob:

Having just spent the last three days at Myopia I should probably post a thread on the course and the holes----as among its so many neat features the course is right now at a point where I could probably say it had just about the most ideal "maintenance meld" I've seen---until a pretty fierce thunderstorm took it out Saturday afternoon.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City, Myopia and Chicago Golf Club
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2007, 04:11:05 PM »
You damn well better post something on Myopia. Include lots of course details, stuff on club atmosphere and your meetings with John Updike. You did meet Updike, didn't you?

Bob
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 04:11:44 PM by BCrosby »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back