By the hand of man go thee...

[Mike_Cirba]

Don Mahaffey,

Then, I would encourage you to collect as many pictures of Yankee Stadium as you can.  It won't be here much longer.

Yankee Stadium will soon join The Polo Grounds and Ebbets Field as NLE

Patrick,

We may as well rip down St. Patrick's Cathedral, implode the Empire State Building. or build a mall on NGLA.  

If we don't preserve the best of our past, what are future generations going to have as avatars?

[Donnie Beck]

I have always been fond of light houses

[John Kavanaugh]

I can't get behind bridges for two reasons:

1.  The hidden decay of most American bridges is the single greatest threat to our national security that continues to go unchecked.

2.  Structural engineers build monuments to themselves on the publics dime.  Most bridges are built with beauty in mind and function and maintenance secondary.  This in turn is what has led to point one.

The very thought of a bridge makes me sick...but, next time you are under a bridge or next to a span take a look at how they are balanced on little moveable toggles.  It is really cute how they float along pieces of steel to offset the beating they take because if they were fastened hard they would snap.

[Doug Siebert]

I remember hearing that when the Autobahn first began construction they tried to route it dead straight, through hills instead of around them, etc.  But they found it lead to a lot of crashes due to road hyponosis, and found that the solution was to create gentle curves in the road.  The road was slightly longer but it was made up for by the savings in not having to blast away as many hills and fill as many valleys.

I think there are some easily seen parallels here to designing a golf course, and to mowing patterns.

[Wyatt Halliday]

I think there are some easily seen parallels here to designing a golf course, and to mowing patterns.

Speaking of mowing patterns, I'm having trouble finding a previous thread regarding them. Can anyone remember topics related to why certain patterns are favored over others? Or why specific patterns are chosen in new construction? Terms? Verbage? Bueller?

Thanks
WH

[Rich Goodale]

I remember hearing that when the Autobahn first began construction they tried to route it dead straight, through hills instead of around them, etc.  But they found it lead to a lot of crashes due to road hyponosis, and found that the solution was to create gentle curves in the road.  The road was slightly longer but it was made up for by the savings in not having to blast away as many hills and fill as many valleys.

I think there are some easily seen parallels here to designing a golf course, and to mowing patterns.

The canny Scots (inventors of asphalt (or "tarmacadam"), BTW), have used that Autobahn technique on the main route to the Highlands (the A9).  Unfortunately, the road is largely a two-lane road, so the curvature makes it nearly impossible to pass slower traffic safely, increasing frustration of drivers sitting behind slow traffic, and leading to a depressingly high number of head on collisions.

As to the question at hand, the only good road in the world is the Merritt Parkway, which was built of concrete and was probably designed with significant Arts and Crafts infuences.

[John Kavanaugh]

I remember hearing that when the Autobahn first began construction they tried to route it dead straight, through hills instead of around them, etc.  But they found it lead to a lot of crashes due to road hyponosis, and found that the solution was to create gentle curves in the road.  The road was slightly longer but it was made up for by the savings in not having to blast away as many hills and fill as many valleys.

I think there are some easily seen parallels here to designing a golf course, and to mowing patterns.

The canny Scots (inventors of asphalt (or "tarmacadam"), BTW), have used that Autobahn technique on the main route to the Highlands (the A9).  Unfortunately, the road is largely a two-lane road, so the curvature makes it nearly impossible to pass slower traffic safely, increasing frustration of drivers sitting behind slow traffic, and leading to a depressingly high number of head on collisions.

As to the question at hand, the only good road in the world is the Merritt Parkway, which was built of concrete and was probably designed with significant Arts and Crafts infuences.

McAdam was a Scot but the oldest record of street paving with asphalt is attributed to King Nabopplassar, in Babylon, between 625 and 604 B.C.

[George Pazin]

I'm with John Cullum, I've always loved skyscrapers - even though I have a fear of heights. Go figure.

It was always the World Trade Center for me. When I did my time in NYC , that was one of the few tourist attractions I actually visited, and on a regular basis at that. I wish they'd simply rebuild it, rather than building a memorial, but I guess I'm in the minority on that one.

Pittsburgh has an amazing skyline, particularly if approached from the airport out west. You come out of the Ft. Pitt tunnel and BAM, there's the city.

[Jim Franklin]

I was looking for the mowing pattern thread from awhile ago and couldn't find it, but found this.

I was wondering how supers decide what pattern to mow. I was talking recently to someone that used to mow cross ways for the checkered look and now goes up and back to create a light/dark side. He says it saves 16 manhours a week doing it this way so now they can hand mow close to the greens where it is more delicate. thoughts?

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

I have always been fond of WWI (Albatros DV, FOKKER DR 1, Sopwith Camel, Hanrot HD1 and Royal Aircraft Factory SE5A) and WWII aircraft (P38 Lightning, P51 Mustang, Curtiss P40B, b17, etc).  They are surely works of art.  

[Paul_Turner]

A dry stone wall from The Lake District



Or how about Judith's Hedge,  nearly 1000 years old.

Don't like roads.

[RJ_Daley]

I always rather enjoyed the vistas of structures completed by the hands of ancient man.  Here, the concept of water that brought life to the magnificent cities and people.  Of course all the multitudes of ancient people user structures trip my trigger, knowing the advancement of engineering each of them represents, from colesiums to cathedrals.  


Roads of an interstate nature... not so much.  Although the "going to the sun" "Pac Coast HYW" and "amalfi coast" sort of marvels are great.  An overpass is a nothing more than a modern but necessary blight on the landscape, IMHO.

[john_stiles]

1. Bridge design & architecture
2. Building design & architecture
3. Golf architecture
4. Gardens
5. Water bridges over water  

[John Kavanaugh]

I can't get behind bridges for two reasons:

1.  The hidden decay of most American bridges is the single greatest threat to our national security that continues to go unchecked.

2.  Structural engineers build monuments to themselves on the publics dime.  Most bridges are built with beauty in mind and function and maintenance secondary.  This in turn is what has led to point one.

The very thought of a bridge makes me sick...but, next time you are under a bridge or next to a span take a look at how they are balanced on little moveable toggles.  It is really cute how they float along pieces of steel to offset the beating they take because if they were fastened hard they would snap.

I am a little spooked this morning.

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

This is a really interesting subject and thread and first post.

Congratulations.

I would never want to question what any man thinks is beautiful aesthetically. After-all, these things and these questions are subjective and probably too personal, as they should be.

For my part, frankly I don't even know how to answer a question like this, since I guess I could find aesthetic beauty in a wide and diverse array of things----eg wholly natural, wholly man-made or perhaps any combination of the two.

However, I'm always reminded of something Max Behr said which I think is so important and so fundamental when one starts comparing golf course architecture as an art form or aesthetically to other art forms or just man-made forms.

Behr said the "medium" of the paint artist is paint and he is its master. Obviously the mediums of building architects are wood and steel and concrete and glass and such and the medium of the road designer builder is asphalt or whatever and with all those things the architect is the master of those "mediums".

But as Behr said the "medium" of the golf architect is the earth and he is not and never can be it complete master as in those other art forms. To do it well the best he can do is to understand and appreciate the workings and ways of its only true master----Nature.  

Behr's justification of this opinion, at least in one sense, is pretty interesting and probably undeniable, which is if it were not so, in the end, Nature and her forces of wind and water would probably end up destroying it.  

[JESII]

I can't get behind bridges for two reasons:

1.  The hidden decay of most American bridges is the single greatest threat to our national security that continues to go unchecked.

2.  Structural engineers build monuments to themselves on the publics dime.  Most bridges are built with beauty in mind and function and maintenance secondary.  This in turn is what has led to point one.

The very thought of a bridge makes me sick...but, next time you are under a bridge or next to a span take a look at how they are balanced on little moveable toggles.  It is really cute how they float along pieces of steel to offset the beating they take because if they were fastened hard they would snap.

I am a little spooked this morning.

I'm spooked for you...first thing I thought when I saw the news report...

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

I'll go even a step further and mention that perhaps some of the most beautiful things of all in this world might fall into the category of what was once popularly referred to as "The Picturesque" and "The Sublime".

Particularly the latter was essentially based on the idea of awe inspiration, often derived from Man's fear of Nature and clearly evolving from and emerging out of or into religiosity. This was perhaps the greatest combined aesthetic of all--God and Nature.

It's so important to note that this kind of thing, and feeling, came from Man's original perception that Nature was bigger and certainly far more indominatable than he ever could be, and so the idea of "The Picturesque and "The Sublime" emerged in art and in philosophy.

The dynamic that it could be both feared and admired simultaneously was or maybe still is one of the biggest dualities of all.

Until perhaps the time finally arrived when Man came to believe that he understood that Nature afterall was no longer capable of dominating him----or was it?

I guess it's safe to say the final mile of this immense question has not be run. Perhaps it never will be. And so we are back into a new era of religiosity tempered by science, or perhaps more appropriately---the other way around.  

[wsmorrison]

I think man began to feel that he finally had some power over nature started with harnessing (perhaps not) the power of the atom as manifested to the public with Atomic and Hydrogen bombs.  I have long held a gut feeling that this influenced many endeavors including the arts in general and golf course architecture in particular.  I never rigorously studied this but it is very interesting to me.

"Behr said the "medium" of the paint artist is paint and he is its master. Obviously the mediums of building architects are wood and steel and concrete and glass and such and the medium of the road designer builder is asphalt or whatever and with all those things the architect is the master of those "mediums".

But as Behr said the "medium" of the golf architect is the earth and he is not and never can be it complete master as in those other art forms. To do it well the best he can do is to understand and appreciate the workings and ways of its only true master----Nature."

Tom,

That is a fascinating perspective.  Thanks for sharing it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Behr, smehr...I'll feel better when I know Dan Kelly and Rick Shefchik and their loved ones are safe.  I know you guys are busy today but would appreciate a quick note if at all possible.

[TEPaul]

I think that I shall never see
A billboard as pretty as a tree
And if, the billboards never fall
Perhaps I will never see a tree at all

O.N.

[TEPaul]

JohnK

There are a couple of guys on this website and you're apparently one of them, who seem to have an ongoing lack of respect for Max Behr and some of the things he said. When it comes to truly looking into the heart and soul of golf course architecture and understanding it, that fact will always limit you, and those others, and probably pretty severely. It's almost as if you guys think you're smarter or more prescient about the subject than he was.

You aren't. Not by a couple of miles down a beautiful country road.

[Tom Huckaby]

TEP - you do realize what occurred in Minneapolis yesterday afternoon, correct?

With that in mind... and the spookiness of JK's post yesterday (and I too thought of this immediately when I heard the news from MN)... I too say Behr, schmer, for today.  And I too and concerned for friends in Minnesota, like Dan and Rick.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

JohnK

There are a couple of guys on this website and you're apparently one of them, who seem to have an ongoing lack of respect for Max Behr and some of the things he said. When it comes to truly looking into the heart and soul of golf course architecture and understanding it, that fact will always limit you, and those others, and probably pretty severely. It's almost as if you guys think you're smarter or more prescient about the subject than he was.

You aren't. Not by a couple of miles down a beautiful country road.

Tom,

You may not be aware but a major bridge in Minn/St. Paul collapsed last night.  I don't know why, because I am supposed to be the cynical bastard on this board, but it has touched me deeply.  I have a couple of friends that live in the area and would like to know if they are safe.

I don't have an opinion on Behr one way or the other because reading about architecture is not my gig.  From what I have seen in the past from opinions of others on this board he seems to have been a fun guy and great player.  I can't recall at this time but I do remember at one time defending the guy and Baltusrol on the same thread.  It seems that he has some history there and I used that in an argument to promote the greatness of the course.

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

I realize a bridge collapsed in Minn. Maybe that's what you meant by your comment about Behr----eg what he said about golf and architecture basically has nothing whatsoever to do with bridges that collapse.

By the way, John, in the context of this thread which you started before the bridge collapsed in Minn (that is pretty spooky), what do you feel about bridges like that collapsing and the resultant tragedy? From some of what I hear about what's going on in China these days it sounds like we may expect things like whole buildings to collapse in the not distance future.

Are you aware, by the way, about what's apparently being called the "total lie" about the safety of the structures of San Francisco following the early earthquake? How about LA? How about New Orleans? How about Man's general arrogance or just naivete when it comes to comprehensive safety from potential natural disasters?

Maybe I should say I hate to say this---but when it comes to some natural disasters such as tidal waves or volcanoes or perhaps even earthquakes and such (real natural disasters) I tend to look at them as basically just the way of the world over which we probably can have no real control. In a sense that kind of thing (massive tragic death) may just be what once was called Malthusian. To even begin to think that Man should have or can have all the answers to the things that happen in this universe just may be our final and ultimate arrogance and stupidity.

[Kirk Gill]

I think man began to feel that he finally had some power over nature started with harnessing (perhaps not) the power of the atom as manifested to the public with Atomic and Hydrogen bombs.  I have long held a gut feeling that this influenced many endeavors including the arts in general and golf course architecture in particular.  I never rigorously studied this but it is very interesting to me.

Really interesting notion, Wayne. Historically, there are so many eras when man managed to eke out a little more control over the rest of nature, it's hard to point at one in particular and say that was the moment when man felt like he was finally in control. And what is also interesting is how in each era there are those who express the opposite point, that man is still more subject to nature than able to subjugate it (see Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" as an example).

In GCA, it seems like the move inland from links to land less suited for golf prompted the hand of man to get more involved. But to get back to the point you made above, did the advent of the nuclear age and the degree of control over nature that implied have an effect on GCA ? Was that when manufacturing courses really began to take precedence over "finding" them?