The EPA, Architects, Site Selection and feature replacement

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick,
please point out the language in the regulations that SINGLE OUT golf courses....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick...

there's little use in discussing this with you because you are right...you are always right...

No, I just prefer reasoned solutions to extreme and/or drastic measures.[/color]

but I have a few questions

Is your drinking water from a stream?

No[/color]

Is it treated before you drink it?

Yes[/color]

Where do the chemicals applied to golf courses go?

Mostly, in the ground, where they stay.
Some make their way to waterways.[/color]

What do you suppose the cummulative impacts of housing, farming, industry, commercial development, golf course, are on ground and surface water?

Let me see if I understand this question and its implications.

You want to eradicate humans from the environment, right ?

I'll tell you what the cummulative effect is.
We have one of the GREAT nations of all time.
And, we're a little more than 200 years old.
Our standards of living are amongst the highest in the world.
We have the best of just about everything.
We're inventive.
When we discover a systemic problem, we fix it.

We farm to feed our population.
We build to house our population
We engage in commerce to provide a medium of exchange for our population.
We build golf courses for recreational use for our population.

If you want to eliminate farming, housing, commerce and golf, you'd be better served by moving to some remote location on another continent, one racked with disease, hunger and a rudimentary environment.[/color]

In the meantime, maybe you should work harder to get more polluters elected to office in NJ.

Don't worry, the rocket scientist legislators in New Jersey drove out the manufacturers decades ago.  The forced them to Pennsylvania and the South.  Now, they've gone overseas, and with that exodus, along went the jobs.

Just drive through the area not far from Newark Airport where vast complexes of a once thriving economy/environment are now reduced to block upon block of shelled out buildings.  Buildings which once housed thousands of workers in vibrant industries, workers who provided for their families and made the economy hum.

Now, those same workers are either out of work or at jobs which pay less, despite the rise in the cost of living over the last few decades.

You need a dose of reality to understand that people are THE most important beings on the planet.  
They need food, housing, commerce and recreation, not zealots who want to return to the ice age or shortly thereafter.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
please point out the language in the regulations that SINGLE OUT golf courses....

That's the problem, the regs don't address entity specific situations.

I thought Steve Lang and I explained that to you earlier.[/color]

[Craig Sweet]

Yeah Patrick this is a great nation...that does not change the fact that the Clark Fork River is a super fund clean up site that stretches 150 miles...nor does it change the fact that the Old Woks is built on a super fund site...nor does it change the fact that a cyanide plume is oozing around Milltown damn and polluting wells and groundwater....and could eventually contaminate the very water Canyon River Golf course uses to irrigate...the COST for being such a terrific nation with such a wonderful standard of living has been some serious enviromental issues that threaten the next generation's opportunity to enjoy the same standard of living that you enjoyed...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yeah Patrick this is a great nation...that does not change the fact that the Clark Fork River is a super fund clean up site that stretches 150 miles...nor does it change the fact that the Old Woks is built on a super fund site...nor does it change the fact that a cyanide plume is oozing around Milltown damn and polluting wells and groundwater....and could eventually contaminate the very water Canyon River Golf course uses to irrigate...the COST for being such a terrific nation with such a wonderful standard of living has been some serious enviromental issues that threaten the next generation's opportunity to enjoy the same standard of living that you enjoyed...

Nonsense.

The next generation's ability to enjoy a good standard of living has been jeopardized by forcing industry/commerce to alien shores.  Those nation's next generation will enjoy a better standard of living than the previous one because commercial enterprises which used to be in America will produce the wage base to enable them to do so, while earning a good living in this country will have gotten substantially more difficult.  Just ask Shivas.

And, your point has got NOTHING to do with GOLF COURSES.

What you fail to realize is that much of the pollution you refer to was done without the knowledge of the long term effects to the environment, by anyone, private and public sector alike.

Do you think that anyone in America in the height of the industrial revolution and the agronomic bounty in the 1800's understood the impact of the residues from their endeavors ?

In the early 1900's ?

It's only in the last few decades that an awareness of the environmental issues came to light.

And what happened when it came to light ?
 
We made efforts to remediate the problems created by prior generations while trying to continue with our economic growth in a prudent fashion  

But, the extremists want to go beyond reasonableness, they want to extract their pounds of flesh.[/color]

[Craig Sweet]

Ok Patrick...whatever you say...

Golf courses are a non-point source of pollution and the last time I checked non point sources account for about 60% of all water quality degradation.....of course, golf courses are probably near the bottom of the list of "bad" non-point sources...the problem is, Patrick, water quality measures above and below non-poiint sources in a much broader "circle" than say the obvious point source....a pipe coming from a factory and dumping into a river....that source is much easier to measure...than say a development of 200 homes and a golf coure and a park...is it the golf course, the resdidental development?  

[Rich Goodale]

"Nonsense.

The next generation's ability to enjoy a good standard of living has been jeopardized by forcing industry/commerce to alien shores."

Pat

You are very right to categorize that sentence as "nonsense."  The "next generation" you refer to is not exclusively American.  In fact, on balance this new generation (wihich is increasingly represented on this forum) is and will enjoy a standard of living beyond your and your parent's wildest dreams.  Of course, it will include a degree of inclusivity that your and my parents would find disturbing, but only before they thought about the consequences of the alternative.

There is no more reason that a shoemaker or an autoworker in Malaysia should earn more or less than their counterparts in Spartanburg than there is that an insurance broker in Bangalore should earn more or less than his counterpart in New Jersey.

Welcome to the real brave new world, Buckaroo.......

Rich

[paul cowley]

I get around quite a bit and am old enough to marvel at the great improvement in this nations air and water quality.
It has never been better since probably pre industrial times, when the population was a tiny fraction of today's.

Does anyone else remember when the Cuyahoga river caught on fire?
Or that Lake Erie was almost as dead as its fisheries.

Or that the Hudson River south of Albany was totally polluted?

Today fish are once again being eaten out of these rivers.
The Connecticut River is once again enjoying a salmon run.

If these rivers are are that improved at their outfalls, then that speaks volumes about how clean they must be upstream.


I tend to agree with Patrick that we over regulate.

The various agencies just don't know where to stop at times.
When they achieve a certain standard they have the tendency to ratchet them up with newer and more restrictive goals.

I see this in the golf side and I consider myself a steward when it comes to practical conservation.
Earlier this year I put 2,000 acres, including 7 miles of riverfront, in a never to be changed easement that was the biggest donation for Georgia's Land Trust ever.
I am forming the Satilla River Center, a non profit foundation to foster all sorts of studies and educational programs about the river system.

My goal is another 10,000 acres in five years, which is realistic as I am realizing a critical mass and have a track record.

BTW, this has been done on my own private initiative.
I can be much more effective as an individual than working with a group.
A group would still be bogged down in committee.

Saw my first Florida [or should I now say Georgia] Panther just the other day.

I am not really sure why I am sharing this as I much prefer to be behind the scene.

I am writing this from a site in Baja California, where the standards for air and water quality are 1960's at best.

[paul cowley]

....but I will disagree with Patrick in that all these goof ball regulations can be difficult to design around.

You just need to think like them, and then out think them at their own game.

Outside Savannah Ga, we are currently building a course adjacent to the Hampton River.
We are creating 60 acres of 'faux' rice-fields, and miles of new streams and gullies, all to provide for drainage and irrigation retention for the course....and aesthetics too.

This is being done on a large scale, all in upland areas, and none of this creation was required for mitigation.

In fact the entire site was designed with no requests for mitigation because we designed it to have no wetland impacts.......on any of its 1600 acres.

The agencies are scratching their heads.
I think some are thinking we a creating a mitigation bank.

Hey, not a bad idea  .....but not.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

The one HUGE difference is, that the workers in those countries have the better end of the trade deals.

Whomever negotiated ours did a dreadful job.

Many nations have government and business working in harmony with one another, not against each other.

And, the businesses in those countries don't have minimum wage, OSHA, DEP and a myriad of agencies constraining their efforts.

It's not a level playing field and we've gotten the short end of the stick ..... in the eye.

[PThomas]

I get around quite a bit and am old enough to marvel at the great improvement in this nations air and water quality.
It has never been better since probably pre industrial times, when the population was a tiny fraction of today's.

Does anyone else remember when the Cuyahoga river caught on fire?
Or that Lake Erie was almost as dead as its fisheries.

Or that the Hudson River south of Albany was totally polluted?

Today fish are once again being eaten out of these rivers.
The Connecticut River is once again enjoying a Salmon run.

If these rivers are are that improved at their outfall, then that speaks volumes about how clean they must be upstream.


I tend to agree with Patrick that we over regulate.

The various agencies just don't know where to stop at times.
When they achieve a certain standard they have the tendency to ratchet them up with newer and more restrictive goals.

I see this in the golf side and I consider myself a steward when it comes to practical conservation.
Earlier this year I put 2,000 acres, including 7 miles of riverfront, in a never to be changed easement that was the biggest donation for Georgia's Land Trust ever.
I am forming the Satilla River Center, a non profit foundation to foster all sorts of studies and educational programs about the river system.

My goal is another 10,000 acres in five years, which is realistic as I am realizing a critical mass and have a track record.

BTW, this has been done on my own private initiative.
I can be much more effective as an individual than working with a group.
A group would still be bogged down in committee.

Saw my first Florida [or should I now say Georgia] Panther just the other day.

I am not really sure why I am sharing this as I much prefer to be behind the scene.

I am writing this from a site in Baja California, where the standards for air and water quality are 1960's at best.

Paul , you are correct in that, since the Clean Water Act was passed in 1972, the quality of our nation's water has gotten better....

what most people don't realize, I believe, is that despite these improvements, much of our water is still polluted...of the waters the states and tribes monitor, approximately 40% of them do not meet all of their water quality goals...and many feel that 40% figure would be too low if all of the nation's waters could be monitored

I think that one of the problems is that dramatic events like the Cuyahoga catching on fire don't occur any more....but we do have serious situations like the hypoxic zone, which forms every year in a huge part of the Gulf of MExico

the leading cause of water pollution in the US is nonpoint source (NPS) pollution, which occurs when rainwater flows into our waters carrying pollutants with it....point sources of pollution, which come from  discrete source, like factory discharges, are much better controlled than 35 years ago..

NPS pollution is much less dramatic looking than ugly stuff pouring out of a pipe...and NPS sources come from a variety of sources..

as our country's population continues to increase - one study projects 400 million people by 2050 - the stressors on our nation's waterways will continue to increase...adding to this situation is the water quantity one, which is already becoming an issue in parts of our country

none of us should take clean water as a given...it is our job to protect this most valuable resource for our children and future generations

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick, you are correct, business and the US government have worked hand in hand during the last two administrations to negotiate trade deals that have wrecked the American middle class and exploided foreign workers and their enviroment...

It wasn't enough that large resource extractive companies had to leave behind a legacy of pollution and dead workers here in the US west, but now they have moved their opperations to Asia and South America...come to Libby Montana and we'll go talk with the folk up there that have lost family members to asbestos related deaths...so far more than 200 workers...or come to Butte Montana and we'll tour the Berkeley Pit...hundreds of millions of gallons of toxic water sitting in a big hole in the ground right smack in the middle of the city of Butte....or maybe we could take a tour up Gold Creek...once a thriving spawning creek for Bull trout...which by the way are now on the Endangered Species list...the Gold Creek drainage is thousands of acres of clear cuts...the company that cut the forest told the workers, and the mills, that they practiced sustainable forestry and they had years of trees to supply the mills...one small problem...they increased the harvest and cut it all off in 1/3rd the time so they could sell the land and move their operations to a foreign country...exploitation knows no boundries...

Patrick,are you beginning to see a cumulative impact here? Are you beginning to see that many people, and many beautiful areas, that are important for clean air and clean water (which I happen to need) have paid the price for your beautiful standard of living?  Someone always pays the price Patrick, but I bet you've avoided it...or most of it. Now that it's occuriing out of sight in a foreign country who cares? Right?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, you are correct, business and the US government have worked hand in hand during the last two administrations to negotiate trade deals that have wrecked the American middle class and exploided foreign workers and their enviroment...

The bad deals extend far beyond the last two administrations.[/color]

It wasn't enough that large resource extractive companies had to leave behind a legacy of pollution and dead workers here in the US west, but now they have moved their opperations to Asia and South America

What's that got to do with GOLF COURSES ?

Which companies have moved THEIR operations to Asia and South America ?[/color]

...come to Libby Montana and we'll go talk with the folk up there that have lost family members to asbestos related deaths...so far more than 200 workers

What has that got to do with GOLF COURSES ?
How do you know the cause of death ?
What company did they work for ?[/color]

...or come to Butte Montana and we'll tour the Berkeley Pit...hundreds of millions of gallons of toxic water sitting in a big hole in the ground right smack in the middle of the city of Butte....

What has that got to do with GOLF COURSES ?
The Berkley Pit was an open Copper mine.
And, as I understand it, that water isn't going anywhere.[/color]

or maybe we could take a tour up Gold Creek...once a thriving spawning creek for Bull trout...which by the way are now on the Endangered Species list...the Gold Creek drainage is thousands of acres of clear cuts...the company that cut the forest told the workers, and the mills, that they practiced sustainable forestry and they had years of trees to supply the mills...one small problem...they increased the harvest and cut it all off in 1/3rd the time so they could sell the land and move their operations to a foreign country...exploitation knows no boundries...

What has that got to do with GOLF COURSES ?

What was the company's name.

And, how do you know what they told the workers ?
Do you have the written documents confirming your allegation ?[/color]

Patrick,are you beginning to see a cumulative impact here?


No, I see three isolated, unrelated allegations/incidents in a State that's 147,000 square miles.[/color]

Are you beginning to see that many people, and many beautiful areas, that are important for clean air and clean water (which I happen to need) have paid the price for your beautiful standard of living?  

That's pure bullshit.
Ask all those people employed by industry, directly and indirectly, about how they paid for the cars, homes, clothing and other items that afforded them a decent life style.  It wasn't from donations from the likes of you.[/color]

Someone always pays the price Patrick, but I bet you've avoided it...or most of it.

I'll bet you don't know what you're talking about.
Tell me what price I've avoided paying.[/color]

Now that it's occuriing out of sight in a foreign country who cares?  Right?

You can't be that naive, stupid, zealous or politically blind.
Now you're saying it's my/our responsibility to dictate to other nations how to conduct their commercial and agricultural affairs.

I'm an "America First" advocate.
I want us to take care of ourselves before we send a dime overseas.  If Asian, African, South American companies pursue the development of their contries, that's their business.  Jobs are leaving America because government didn't create an environment where businesses can thrive and compete favorably.  Government's policies were adversarial, not co-operative.

You just don't get it.  You continue to tilt at windmills, insisting that more stringent regulations are necessary, which will further drive commercial ventures and farms out of business.  Then, when most of Montana is unemployed, you'll complain that it's businesses fault for not investing in Montana.

You can't have it both ways.

You may prefer living in the woods, communing with ferns, flowers and fauna, I prefer more in the way of creature comforts, including playing golf on a course that has creeks/streams that meander through it.[/color]

Lastly, could you please stick to golf courses and not your unrelated agenda.

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick...yeah I have seen how companies operate when the regulations do not exist or are ignored by enforcement agencies....like I said, I'd be happy to show you....but then, if you live in NJ you don't have to look very far...

Secondly, regarding trade deals....you raised the subject, and you obviously don't have a clue whats going on...do you get all your information from Fox News?

Lastly, golf courses do not exist in a vacuum...anymore than a residential development or a comercial development...as non-point sources of pollution they will be regulated whether you like it or not...

Here's a link to a study on golf course run off...check the sources cited for more studies....

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/2000s/2005/050126.pdf

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick...I have a little more time this evening to respond to your earlier post...

Regarding Libby Montana:  

"How do you know the cause of death ?
What company did they work for ?"

Asbesteosis...200 confirmed dead so far....in the discovery leading up to the trial (coming up soon) it was found that the company KNEW that 100's of workers and their families were being exposed to asbestos and it would kill them...

The company is WR GRACE...they of course are being sued.

As for the Berkeley Pit:

"The Berkley Pit was an open Copper mine.
And, as I understand it, that water isn't going anywhere."

The toxic water is draining into the pit and will eventually fill it over the rim...in the meantime, people are trying to figure out how to solve this future problem....you are correct...so long as the water is in the pit, no one feels concerned enough to move very fast...here's a link to some information...

http://www.mbmg.mtech.edu/env-berkeley.htm

Regarding Gold Creek...and timber harvest in western Montana

"What was the company's name.

And, how do you know what they told the workers ?
Do you have the written documents confirming your allegation ?"

The companies were Champion and B&N (Burlington Northern)

What they said, and what they did is well documented in Richard Mannings' book  "Last Stand: Logging, Journalism, and the Case for Humility"

Manning had access to corporate memo's etc that support his writing...like I said, well documented...


Patrick, when you come out we can ask some of those folk in Libby how they feel about WR GRACE and ask if it was all worth it....same for the folk in Butte and the millworkers that lost their jobs, their homes, their cars, everything.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick...yeah I have seen how companies operate when the regulations do not exist or are ignored by enforcement agencies....

Could you cite WHERE regulations don't exist ?
Can you cite where and which enforcement agencies ignored the regulations ?

OR are these just more of your unsubstantiated, inflammatory claims ?[/color]

like I said, I'd be happy to show you

You don't have to show me, just produce the citations as requested above.[/color]

....but then, if you live in NJ you don't have to look very far...


Yes, I do, and it's gorgeous here.
Just today I took a nice drive in northwestern NJ, it's beautiful country.[/color]

Secondly, regarding trade deals....you raised the subject, and you obviously don't have a clue whats going on...do you get all your information from Fox News?[/b]

I can assure you that I"m well informed, assisted by reading three newspapers a day, including the New York Times.
I"m afraid it's you who are in the dark.[/b]

Lastly, golf courses do not exist in a vacuum...anymore than a residential development or a comercial development

No, no, there you go again, deviating from the focus of the thread.  Stick to golf courses, this isn't about residential or commercial development, two critical factors that make the world go round.[/color]

...as non-point sources of pollution they will be regulated whether you like it or not...

You still don't get it.
Unreasonable regulations don't benefit anyone.
Over regulating doesn't benefit anyone.

You just want to stifle growth, and, you've never considered the devastating impact of zero growth or negative growth[/color]

Here's a link to a study on golf course run off...check the sources cited for more studies....

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/2000s/2005/050126.pdf

I want to thank you for posting that link.
You must not have read it in its entirety prior to posting, I did.
I think it proves my point and undermines yours.

Especially the fact that the study ONLY used a TWO (2) foot BUFFER.

You may recall that one of my objections was that NJ had increased the buffer from 75-150 to 300 feet.

Thanks for helping me support my position.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick...I have a little more time this evening to respond to your earlier post...

Regarding Libby Montana:  

"How do you know the cause of death ?
What company did they work for ?"

Asbesteosis...200 confirmed dead so far....in the discovery leading up to the trial (coming up soon) it was found that the company KNEW that 100's of workers and their families were being exposed to asbestos and it would kill them...

That's interesting.
The trial HASN'T started yet, but, you're in possession of the discovery documents.

Being exposed to asbestos doesn't automatically convey a death sentence as you erroneously report.

Some people smoke several packs of cigarettes a day and never experience lung problems.  While actuaries can predict mortality within a sampling of large numbers, in NJ only the Mafia knows their names.[/color]

The company is WR GRACE...they of course are being sued.


But, companies don't make policy, individuals do.
Are the individuals that, according to you, murdered these 100 people behind bars on criminal convictions ?
Certainly you must know, since you're in possession of the pre-trial discovery documents.[/color]

As for the Berkeley Pit:

"The Berkley Pit was an open Copper mine.
And, as I understand it, that water isn't going anywhere."

The toxic water is draining into the pit and will EVENTUALLY fill it over the rim...

EVENTUALLY ?
That's not true and you know it.
Steps have been taken to prevent the rise in the water.
So, my statement is correct, the water isn't going anywhere and it HASN'T contaminated the water supply.

Try being intellectually honest when you present your argument, it would be refreshing.[/color]

in the meantime, people are trying to figure out how to solve this future problem....you are correct...so long as the water is in the pit, no one feels concerned enough to move very fast...here's a link to some information...

Thanks.[/color]

http://www.mbmg.mtech.edu/env-berkeley.htm


I"m aware of the situation.
What you fail to recognize is that the open copper mine began in 1955.  First, Open mines are far safer than underground mines.  Second, in 1955 NOONE knew of the long term effects/impact the mine would have on the environment.

You continue to rant and rave in the context of current information and technology, applied retroactively, when NOONE, neither industry nor the government, understood the potential long term impacts.[/color]

Regarding Gold Creek...and timber harvest in western Montana

"What was the company's name.

And, how do you know what they told the workers ?
Do you have the written documents confirming your allegation ?"

The companies were Champion and B&N (Burlington Northern)

What they said, and what they did is well documented in Richard Mannings' book  "Last Stand: Logging, Journalism, and the Case for Humility"

Oh, so all of a sudden, one author represents the Gospel according to Craig Sweet.

I'll ask the question again, do you have documentation supporting your allegations ?[/color]

Manning had access to corporate memo's etc that support his writing...like I said, well documented...

Then, you should have no problem producing them.[/color]

Patrick, when you come out we can ask some of those folk in Libby how they feel about WR GRACE and ask if it was all worth it....same for the folk in Butte and the millworkers that lost their jobs, their homes, their cars, everything.

I"m not interested in selected samplings or 20-20 hindsight.

You can come to NJ and ask people who used to be employed in dignified jobs how they feel about their plight since the government forced their companies and the jobs that came with them, out of business or to other states or countries.
[/color]

[Craig Sweet]

Gee Patrick, that is NOT QUITE what they said...first of all they said the BEST way to eliminate pesticde run off is not to use the pesticide, and the second best way is to use pesticides with good enviromental properties, one of the best being a low application rate...

Regarding buffers...they stated that their collection point was two feet from where the pesticide was applied...and then they said "any increase in the length of untreated turf or other landscape plantings between the treated turf and the point where run off would enter a stream...blah..blah...will dramatically reduce pesticide run off"

Patrick, it doesn't surprise me that you would consider 2ft to be an adequate buffer...like I said, you haven't got a clue...

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick, the Libby case is well documented and has been on national news on numerous occasions...the trial will put WR GRACE officials on trial...

The fact is, hundreds of people living in Libby and working at the WR GRACE mine have died from asbesteosis...the sad thing is, GRACE knew the danger and kept it from the workers...again..this is documented.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/211169_libby08.html

"Second, in 1955 NOONE knew of the long term effects/impact the mine would have on the environment."

What a convienent excuse....but I bet they knew exactly what effects/impacts the mine would have....in Butte and in Libby...the Pit continues to fill up...where will the toxic water go when the time comes?  The toxic water hasn't gotten into the city water supply...yet...but as I pointed out, in Milltown and Bonner, very close to the Canyon River golf course, a large toxic blume from the Clark Fork River has gotten into wells and other drinking supplies....

" In 1981, the Missoula City/County Health Department informed the residents of Milltown, Bonner and Piltzville that their wells were contaminated with over 10 times the amount of arsenic that federal drinking water standards allow. Leaching from behind the dam are toxic mining sediments of copper, zinc, cadmium, lead and arsenic which are strongly linked to bladder, lung and kidney cancer. Wells were shut down and bottled water distributed."

Here's another link to an excelelnt article on what happened to western timberlands

http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=5760

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gee Patrick, that is NOT QUITE what they said...first of all they said the BEST way to eliminate pesticde run off is not to use the pesticide, and the second best way is to use pesticides with good enviromental properties, one of the best being a low application rate...

Regarding buffers...they stated that their collection point was two feet from where the pesticide was applied...and then they said "any increase in the length of untreated turf or other landscape plantings between the treated turf and the point where run off would enter a stream...blah..blah...will dramatically reduce pesticide run off"

Patrick, it doesn't surprise me that you would consider 2ft to be an adequate buffer...like I said, you haven't got a clue...

Not only do you not have a clue, you can't read.

Would you cite where I stated that 2 feet was adequate ?

You won't find that statement because I never made it.  
This is just another example of your intellectual dishonesty.

You can't tell the truth and have to resort to distortion and false claims.

I answer all of your questions, you NEVER answer mine.
Why is that ?  It means that you must NOT have the answers.

Let me ask you another question.
Scientists now claim that gram for gram Beryllium is one of the most toxic materials around.   Should Ping be sued for using it in their irons ?  Should the executives at Ping be brought up on charges ?[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, the Libby case is well documented and has been on national news on numerous occasions...the trial will put WR GRACE officials on trial...

If the case hasn't yet gone to trial, how are you in possesion of the discovery documents ?

Don't duck the issue, you made an allegation and claimed to base it on depositions obtained in the discovery process, SO, Answer the question.[/color]

The fact is, hundreds of people living in Libby and working at the WR GRACE mine have died from asbesteosis...the sad thing is, GRACE knew the danger and kept it from the workers...again..this is documented.

Great, then produce the documents.

This mine opened in 1913 and W.R. Grace had NOTHING to do with it until 1963, fifty years after it had been in operation.[/color]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/211169_libby08.html


This is a newspaper article.
It does not contain any depositions obtained during discovery.
Depositions which you claimed to be on possession of.
Were you lying about this as well ?[/color]

"Second, in 1955 NOONE knew of the long term effects/impact the mine would have on the environment."

What a convienent excuse....but I bet they knew exactly what effects/impacts the mine would have....in Butte and in Libby...the Pit continues to fill up...where will the toxic water go when the time comes?  
[size=4x]
The toxic water hasn't gotten into the city water supply...yet...[/size]

YET ?  There is NO YET.
IF the toxic water hasn't gotten in to the water supply, it HASN'T gotten in to the water supply.

The water level in the pit is 2,000 feet below the level established by the government, and a treatment plant is/has been built that will treat the water in the pit.  So stop claiming that things have and will continue to happen when they HAVEN'T happened and steps have been taken to make sure they DON'T happen.

The fact is, you're disengenuous and intellectually dishonest.
You'll lie, misrepresent and distort anything and everything in an attempt to put forth your agenda[/color]

but as I pointed out, in Milltown and Bonner, very close to the Canyon River golf course, a large toxic blume from the Clark Fork River has gotten into wells and other drinking supplies....

You continue to be dishonest by interspersing the completely seperate incidents as if they were one.  

Are you now stating, unequivically, that the Canyon River Golf Course has caused the toxix plume and contaminated the wells adn drinking water.   YES or NO ?
If YES, what evidence do you have to support your position.
If NO, then stop with these baseless allegations.

In 1955, Noone in the private or public sector was aware of the long term affects of open mining in Butte.  If you have evidence to the contrary, please supply it.  If you don't, admit that you misrepresented the facts and distorted the truth.[/color]

" In 1981, the Missoula City/County Health Department informed the residents of Milltown, Bonner and Piltzville that their wells were contaminated with over 10 times the amount of arsenic that federal drinking water standards allow.


The Feds have stated that there has been NO contamination of the ground water outside of the Berkeley Pit, so why are you claiming the Berkeley Pit is contaminating the water of other communities ?

Craig, I know this is difficult for you, but have someone explain to you that 1981 is 26 years removed from 1955.[/color]

Leaching from behind the dam are toxic mining sediments of copper, zinc, cadmium, lead and arsenic which are strongly linked to bladder, lung and kidney cancer. Wells were shut down and bottled water distributed."

What dam ?  There is no dam at the Berkeley Pit.
Stop cross polinating the issues.[/color]

Here's another link to an excelelnt article on what happened to western timberlands

http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=5760

Craig, it's not an article, it's a NEWSLETTER, not government documentation.
Ask yourself, do NEWSLETTERS have agendas  ?[/color]

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick...lets go look at the graves of the 200 people that have died and lets look at the death certificates..underlying cause of death...asbesteosis....but you can be the one to ask the families to prove it, ok?

As for Gold Creek and the clear cuts...they speak for themselves.  And the companies responsible are gone....

JUST like you Parick, I reley on someone doing the investigative work and reporting it...I don't have time, nor do I get paid to dig through thousands of pages of company memo's...emails...reports..etc...but people like Dick Manning DO GET PAID to do that...

What Champion International and BN did is pretty much the story of the west...exploit the people and the land,amke a ton of money and leave a mess...

The people in Libby are not sitting by and saying "gee, what a wonderful life the vermiculite mine provide my father and his father and me...they are pissed off because the company lied and covered up a major health issue and people have died by the hundreds..

Patrick...hopefully the people mining the metals in a Ping driver have been told the truth about any possible health risk and hopefully the companies mining the metals will be responsible....HOWEVER...if they are doing the mining in South America, chances are, they could give a rats ass about anything other than the bottom line.

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick...you have a reading and compreshension problem...I have said twice now that the water behind Milltown dam is highly toxic and thus a super fund site...I have said twice now, that the dam is  a pitch shot away from Canyon River Golf Course...I have said twice now that the heavy metels came from Butte, down the Clark Fork River...its the same toxic mix that is in Berkeley Pit..

I JUST stated that a toxic blume is moving around the dam and into wells in the area of Canyon River Golf Course...
 
I SAID the water in Berkeley Pit is constainly being monitored for leaching...moving...out of the pit..I said it is not currently contaminating anything outside the pit...I said the pit is still filling up...I said no one has figured out what to do with the billions of gallons of toxic water in the pit, but someday they will have to figure it out..

Try to keep up Patrick..

Two foot buffers! Yeah!! The ONLY way to go! You got that right Patrick!

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick, did you even read about the Berkeley Pit?

The current level is less than 146ft from the "critical level"

The Horseshoe Bend treatment plant deals with the 3,000 per minute surface water flow coming from the Horseshoe Bend drainage area...just over 5,000 gals.per minute STILL enter the Pit.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick...lets go look at the graves of the 200 people that have died

What will that tell you ?[/color]

and lets look at the death certificates..underlying cause of death...asbesteosis....

How do you know ?
Have you seen the DC's ?
Are you certain that the employers knew the of the risks associated with asbestos so many years ago ?
When I was a kid, every school I went to had asbestos as a fire retardant.[/color]

but you can be the one to ask the families to prove it, OK.

If you're going to accuse individuals of causing the deaths of others you have to prove it, not just say it.[/color]

As for Gold Creek and the clear cuts...they speak for themselves.  And the companies responsible are gone....

JUST like you Parick, I reley on someone doing the investigative work and reporting it...I don't have time, nor do I get paid to dig through thousands of pages of company memo's...emails...reports..etc...but people like Dick Manning DO GET PAID to do that...

Like Mike Nifong and the three Duke Lacrosse players ?

Before condemning anyone I'd like to see all the facts and see the accused have their day in court.[/color]

What Champion International and BN did is pretty much the story of the west...exploit the people and the land,amke a ton of money and leave a mess...

Another general condemnation absent any specific facts[/color]

The people in Libby are not sitting by and saying "gee, what a wonderful life the vermiculite mine provide my father and his father and me...they are pissed off because the company lied and covered up a major health issue and people have died by the hundreds..

How do you know what the people in Libby think ?
Did you poll them ?
You have to stop making outrageous statements without supporting documentation[/color]

Patrick...hopefully the people mining the metals in a Ping driver have been told the truth about any possible health risk and hopefully the companies mining the metals will be responsible....

If the company isn't aware of the problems how can they tell the employees about them ?

That's the point you keep missing.
You keep evaluating events circa 1913 -1955 in a 2007 context.[/color]

HOWEVER...if they are doing the mining in South America, chances are, they could give a rats ass about anything other than the bottom line.

That's just a dumb statement.
How do you know whatn they think ?

You're so anti-business that it doesn't cloud your judgement, it blinds your judgement.[/color]