[Peter Pallotta]

I had a question for those of you who've played several different courses that have sloped fairways.  Specifically, I’m wondering about how much strategy/options you find such fairways actually add to a hole.  This might be dumb, but just working it out in my head (not having played many such holes, and not remembering them so well), I’m not so sure of the strategic ‘benefits’ of such sloped fairways; or maybe, more accurately, I’m not so sure that they offer anyone but the good player any real options, and even those are limited.

For example: it seems to me that a fairway that slopes quite severely down from left to right almost always calls for a draw off the tee, with the left (i.e. higher) side of the fairway providing the best angle for the approach shot, and with the lower, right side of the fairway usually forcing a player to fly a hazard, since the green doesn’t open up from that side.  (The alternative would be to have the best angle for the approach come from the right, lower side of the fairway, but that would mean then that all tee shots -- good, bad or indifferent -- would be similarly rewarded, since in all cases the ball would either be hit or roll down to the right side.)  But if this is an accurate picture, that means that the green would almost ‘automatically’ have to open up from the left side, and also have to be so designed as to most easily receive a fade, the optimal shot for the approach.  Otherwise, a player who thought he’d been rewarded for drawing the ball off the tee and holding the left side would be asked to hit something other than a fade from a lie that has the ball below his feet – and that’s not much of a reward.  In short, it seems to me that the sloped fairway provides for less options/strategy than the flat fairway.

I hope that’s at least somewhat clear. How much am I missing here? How/where am I wrong in this thinking? Am I making the mistake of assuming in the first place that sloped fairways are meant to offer more options, or are anything but harder than flat fairways for the average golfer?

Thanks
Peter

[wsmorrison]

Peter,

You need to come to Philadelphia and see the wealth of canted fairways and uneven lies that require precise ball striking and properly shaped shots.  

One of the best examples anywhere is Huntingdon Valley CC.  As the name indicates, the course sits in a valley resulting in sloped fairways.  Flynn required you to shape your tee shot to hold the fairway and find the ideal approach angle but at times he would complicate the shot testing by asking you to hit a draw from a fade lie or a fade from a draw lie.  Such a combination of features clearly would indicate the best golfer over the course of a tournament.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Peter,

Consider holes with a sloping fairway that dogleg the opposite direction, such as dogleg right with a right to left sloping fairwway (See Southern Hills #10). In the 2001 US Open, I watched five or six groups and it was virtually the same shot sequence for everyone...3-5iron off the tee, wedge to the green. It did not seem like a very strategic hole to me at the time.

The length of the hole and the severity of the slope in the landing area is the determining factor for strategy imho.

[Matt_Cohn]

I think generally it's a requirement for precision, not necessarily a requirement for strategy.

[JESII]

Peter,

I think by leaving out the strategy required to ge tto certain parts of the green you are leaving out half the equation...you are considering the entire green as dictating one strategic approach. Even if you are not expecting to hit the green in regulation, somepositions around the green are much better than others to each hole location.

Come to HVCC to study sloped fairways and their strategic merits in relation to green complexes.

I'll get more specific in a bit.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, gents. You each came at it from a different angle, all interesting and helpful. JES, that idea of looking at the entire green site (and not only at the green 'in regulation') was really brand new to me; and besides everything else seems like another good example of how a tournament player thinks (i.e. like, 'where's the best place to miss'). From all your posts, though, I'm wondering if the challenge and interest that canted fairways provide the good player is 'at the expense' of the average player, or at the expense of the design idea/value of providing various options to all levels of golfers. Or, put another way (and Wayne, I suspect this is an unfair way to put the question), could someone like Flynn be thought of as an architect who was particularly good at designing tournament courses, but less good as designing 'recreational' ones?

Thanks
Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wyatt Halliday,

I think the slope on # 10 at SH defeats the nature of the dogleg because tee balls are fed sharply to the left, which is a decent angle to attack from and balls hit too far right benefit from the correcting nature of the fairway.

Peter Pallotta,

I think the benefit of sloped fairways is that they tend to predispose ball flight.  This allows the architect to present a subtle but effective defense at the green end, in some cases, by simply sloping the green in the opposite direction.

It allows the architect to configure the green side bunkers in a more effective pattern.

It also takes away the golfers secuirty blanket, his comfort zone, by presenting an awkward stance which can have an adverse affect upon his swing and his ball flight.  I think they promote inferior ball contact.

For fairways that slope toward or away from the golfer, they present ranging problems, which in turn are associated with club selection dilemas and altered ball flight, more good defenses.  They also introduce insecurity to the golfers mind.

At Montclair Golf Club in NJ, a 36 hole golf course, (Ross & Banks) it's difficult to find a level lie.  Every lie imaginable is presented.  When one plays there, it's adapt or perish.
Few adapt well.  Local knowledge thru repeated play is a huge advantage.

If you wanted to study sloped fairways, Montclair should be Exhibit A.

One of the things I loved about Shinnecock was the ribbon like fairways that sloped in every direction.

Today, I'd fear that too many D-6's and D-8's would be let loose in the construction phase.

Sloped fairways seem to be out of favor with the majority of the golfing public, that's why many of them have been regraded or not allowed to come into existance.

However, sloped fairways worked best where width existed, not on 20 yard wide fairways, and, when conditions were F&F.

[wsmorrison]

Peter,

Flynn could be viewed that way if the sampling size was small.  HVCC has always been a club with a strong history of excellent players.  The design mandate for Flynn was to create 3 nines; hard (A nine), harder (B nine) and hardest (C nine).  He did what was asked of him.

Flynn can be thought of as an architect that designed some courses in a way that presented shot testing to the player.  You needed to be able to hit required shots in order to give you the best chance at scoring well.  He also designed some courses that were designed with recreational or beginning golfers in mind, such as Marble Hall, the first suburban public course in Philadelphia, which he also owned.  I'd say that his designs of Bala GC, Monroe CC, McCall Field, Rock Creek, "Short Course" at Manor CC, Beaver Dam, various estate courses (e.g. Cassatt, Woodward, Rockefeller), Hercules Powder (not built) and Normandy Shores are of the "recreational" type that you mention.   While not a lot of courses, it represents 1/4 or so of his portfolio of original designs.

His championship designs were just that and most remain that way even today due to his foresight and design theory and practice that allowed for elasticity and challenges that stand the test of time.

[Peter Pallotta]

I don't have anything new to ask (yet) but couldn't let the thread go on without thanking Patrick and Wayne for a couple of excellent posts.

Actually, I can re-frame an earlier question: is it possible that modern day designers are (or will be) re-casting the canted fairway so that it still tests the shot-making of better players but provides more 'options' for the poorer player?  

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

I think you have to understand the financial dynamics involved when you move a lot of dirt.

A lot would depend upon the depth of the owner/developer's pockets and the intended use of the golf course.

[Kyle Harris]

1st Hole, A-Nine, Huntingdon Valley CC

[Mark_F]

I think sloping fairways can "catch out" players who think of hazards only in terms of bunkers, rough, water etc.

Fairways can also not only slope from left to right or vice versa, but also back to front and front to back when they are played across horizontal ridges and crests, which adds another neat dimension, insofar as you must think about whether you can or want to reach a flatter portion to avoid rolling backwards, or a terrible uphill lie, or if you go over the other side, the ball will keep rolling toward trouble seemingly out of reach but all of a sudden perilously close.

Such an effect also plays on the mental process of players, as most don't seem to calculate such equations when they are playing, and get quite peeved when something unexpected happens.

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