Prestwick #13 - Sea Headrig

[SPDB]

Can we have a chat about this hole, which, relative to its greatness, is rarely discussed here.  It seems that it often gets overlooked amongst other great and quirky holes at Prestwick (viz., Cardinal, Alps, Himalayas, Railway, etc.). The thread about quirk bias got me thinking about this hole for some reason. I have heard a number of people (Faldo?) cite this hole as one of the toughest approaches in golf. It is one of the few greens that doesn't seem to get any easier to approach the closer you get to the hole.

Take a look at this shot of the green and tell me this isn't one of the great natural and compelling greensites you've ever seen. The green just seems to be a natural extension of the humpy fairway, such that it is difficult to discern where the fairway ends and the green begins.

Thoughts?



In looking at these two shots, its difficult for me to remember or discern whether this shot is taken closer or further out from the hole. Very nice deception.

[Matt MacIver]

I would love to comment...but I can't remember the hole that well.  After only one play, and leaking oil on the back, I'm only recalling the more famous (quirky?) holes you mentioned.  

Either that's a statement of my (one-time) view of the hole, or my crappy memory.  Trust me, choose the latter.  

Friends going over in '08 asked for recommendations.  I of course mentioned Prestwick, but because I'm a good friend I also mentioned it was "quirky", and "short".  His 2 HC nose wrinkled up and I could immediately tell he was mentally booking a second round at Troon or West. Gailes.  

[Mark Pearce]

I would love to comment...but I can't remember the hole that well.  After only one play, and leaking oil on the back, I'm only recalling the more famous (quirky?) holes you mentioned.  

Either that's a statement of my (one-time) view of the hole, or my crappy memory.  Trust me, choose the latter.  

Friends going over in '08 asked for recommendations.  I of course mentioned Prestwick, but because I'm a good friend I also mentioned it was "quirky", and "short".  His 2 HC nose wrinkled up and I could immediately tell he was mentally booking a second round at Troon or West. Gailes.  

As a good friend you have to persuade him to play Prestwick.  Yes it's quirky.  Yes, it may be short by today's standards but it's absolutely tremendous fun and far more interesting than Troon.

[Matt MacIver]

As a good friend you have to persuade him to play Prestwick.  Yes it's quirky.  Yes, it may be short by today's standards but it's absolutely tremendous fun and far more interesting than Troon.

Agree, agree and agree!  I could play there weekly and never tire.  

[Tom_Doak]

S:

I played Prestwick again in March for the first time in nearly twenty years, with George Bahto and two of my associates.  George of course wanted to see the Alps, but the hole I was most looking forward to seeing again was #13.

I think it is not discussed more because the hole (specifically its wild and wonderful green) would be impossible to recreate anywhere else.  I thought I remembered the hole reasonably well from my first two trips around, but I would not have even come close to being able to build a green like it, and I probably couldn't if I tried, anyway.  People love to talk about that wild 16th green at North Berwick but it is no more interesting than Sea Headrig.

[SPDB]

Tom:
I think that its not talked about because it doesn't have some wild exogenous feature like Himalayas or Alps, it is simply a wild green that is a natural extension of a wild fairway and can be played any number of ways. I was mesmerized my first time through, so much that after my round was over I went back and studied it for a little while.

I think the seamlessness of the fairway  and the green distinguish 13 at PGC from the 16th at NB, although I dearly love the 16th at NB.

[Tom_Doak]

S:  It can be played any number of ways?  I guess, but most of them are going to lead to a five.  I managed to get my ball to the front left of the green in two this trip and almost holed the putt from there, which would have been one of the circus putts of all time.  I don't know how anyone would get their second shot up on the top tier with any consistency.

[Jay Flemma]

Doesn't mackenzie do the same thing frequently?  Make the green seem a natural extension of the fairway?  ...and include humps and slopes and contours that seem like they naturally extend form the fairway in his greens?

[Pete_Pittock]

   The left side of the Sea Headrig green was the site of the 5th green in the original 12 hole Tom Morris layout. The tee was near the site of the current 3rd green and the hole played over the sea-edge of the 16th.
   With the exception of Himalayas, once I cross the wall I'm just going through the motions of playing golf until I get back into the original dimensions of the course.
   I can't explain why I've had that feeling for 30+ years. I've had an affinity for Prestwick, but didn't know the particulars of the Morris layout until the last year.  
   Whenever possible I try to make it my walk-off course.

[Mark_F]

... it is simply a wild green that is a natural extension of a wild fairway and can be played any number of ways.

That's a pretty terrific description of the type of golf hole that surely belongs on every course.

[Andy Levett]

I don't know how anyone would get their second shot up on the top tier with any consistency.

Funny you should say that. We were up there on Friday and the pins were in odd corners to protect the greens for next week's Scottish Amateur.
Never mind the top tier, look at the pix on the top of the thread, and imagine the pin on that little shelf, to the right and below.  
My mate, a lurker who selflessly drew my attention to this thread, was quietly keeping a very solid medal card amidst the 4BBB matchplay carnage.
After three (?) attempts to putt up ended at his feet he was as flummoxed as the rest of us.

[John_Cullum]

It's a long hole as I recall, and I remember there was a pretty nasty swale to the right of the green

[Marty Bonnar]

Is it a fundamental given that American eyes are 'tuned' to receiving/requiring higher levels of definition than Scottish ones?

To me, the transition from fairway to green in these pics (and, by extension, practically every other links hole in Scotland) is so subtle and yet so obvious that it is 'ordinary'.

Should I assume that to the less educated eye (no GCAers obviously!) of average US golfers, this lower(?) level of separation is too alien a concept and is therefore 'wrong' or 'bad'.

I really like being challenged intellectually by DIFFERENT stimuli to the everyday. The shock of the new or the appreciation of a foreign culture is 'good'. Other forms of golf course design are there to be appreciated. Like them or not, try at least to 'sense' why they are the way they are.

FBD.

[SPDB]

Tom D -
I guess what I was trying to express is that the approach to this green is so immensely difficult that it doesn't really get any easier the closer you get to it.

FBD - I'm not sure I follow what you're saying, but if I do, I disagree. I'm simply pointing out that unlike a lot of holes at Prestwick and Scotland there is nothing (e.g. Bunkers, large hillocks, etc.) that interrupts the progression of fairway to green.

[Gary Slatter]

I've only enjoyed the 13th 3 times, I think the best drive is to the left of the bunker, from that "other" fairway most of the green is accessible.  Can't wait to get there again!

[Gib_Papazian]

Tom,

I am curious as to why you feel you could not to build a similar putting surface to this. It is my favorite green in Scotland and I cannot grasp why this would not be possible to recreate (not exactly of course, but in the spirit of) on the Old Macdonald Course.

There are other, more subtle examples of similarly wild contouring like this that have struck my eye in the past - specifically #3 at Cruden Bay and #2 at St. Andrews - so on a reduced scale it would seem not only possible with the raw product in Bandon, but extremely desirable.

If you managed to wade through a "collaboration" (yeah, right) with Nicklaus and still come up with something fantastic in the toughest neighborhood east of Pebble Beach, one can only imagine what you, George and Urbina can conjure up.

This response probably belongs on the "Best Green" thread - and thank you to SBerry for bringing it to my attention - but there are a couple of greens at Hotchkiss (that George contoured) where the Redhead and I spent 30 minutes at dusk just trying to decipher with pictures and practice putts.  

As to Sea Headrig . . . . the hole gets a lot tougher when you yank a tee shot into Willie Campbell's bunker . . . . . and then do it again off the 16th tee.

2 under par standing on the 13th tee . . . . . to a smooth 80, crawling bloody and traumatized off the 18th with my tail shoved in my posterior.  

[Sean_A]

Gib

This hole came up on another thread not long ago.  I believe that originally, the 13th was approached from slightly further left than now, making the approach somewhat easier.  However, I still agree with you.  I don't see why this type of harsh green (seemingly facing the wrong way) combined with length couldn't be built today.  To a large extent, S Berry is right, how close one is doesn't really make that much approach easier so length from the tee is mitigated to some degree.  Plus, many holes that are 450 to 550 yards are chip n' putt holes for a 4 anyway.  What is wrong about making the chip more difficult?  Its not like the player can't try to swing his second out left (not try to hit the green) in the hope of gaining a better angle for the chip.  Sea Headrig is a great example of surviving the test of time and so its principles should be copied.

Ciao  

[Gib_Papazian]

Sean,

I think this is the thread you mentioned, there was a link to it on the "Best Green" thread.

Agreed Sea Headrig has stood the test of time - one essential component is the speed of this green is perfect for the contours. I do not think chipping to the green from most angles is impossible because it does not Stimp (I hate that term) any faster than 8 or 9.

All it takes is some imagination - something most Americans lack because our greens are so one-dimensional in comparison.

I could not find any putt or chip on that putting surface where you could not get from "here to there," which is probably the dividing line between a green that is unfair vs. a complex puzzle requiring some unusually difficult visualization.

This putting surface seems far friendlier than potential "infinite putting" disasters like #11 at Pasatiempo - or even #1 at NGLA -because they are kept at a stupidly inappropriate speed relative to their contouring.

I'll put #1 at Cypress in that same category though I could be burned at the stake for any of the above comments.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I think this is the thread you mentioned, there was a link to it on the "Best Green" thread.

Agreed Sea Headrig has stood the test of time - one essential component is the speed of this green is perfect for the contours. I do not think chipping to the green from most angles is impossible because it does not Stimp (I hate that term) any faster than 8 or 9.

All it takes is some imagination - something most Americans lack because our greens are so one-dimensional in comparison.

I could not find any putt or chip on that putting surface where you could not get from "here to there," which is probably the dividing line between a green that is unfair vs. a complex puzzle requiring some unusually difficult visualization.

This putting surface seems far friendlier than potential "infinite putting" disasters like #11 at Pasatiempo - or even #1 at NGLA -because they are kept at a stupidly inappropriate speed relative to their contouring.

I'll put #1 at Cypress in that same category though I could be burned at the stake for any of the above comments.

Gib

If memory serves me correctly, on the thread I was thinking of somebody (probably Ally, Brian E or Peter P becasue these guys are always coming up with great images) posted a cool little overlay map of the original course compared to today's course.  Ah well.

I can't comment on some of the American big guns and their speeds as I haven't played them.  Generally speaking though, I am in your camp.  Greens don't need to roll quicker than 9ish.  Once they get up to 10ish and beyond the restrictions on building slope and contour mean that speed is actually dumbing down the game because the risk of altering the greens to accomodate speed is increased.  OR, one can spend a lot of time hitting putts and cussing.  I do find that most GB&I clubs are a bit conservative with green speed.  There has to be a VERY happy medium.

Ciao  

[Andy Levett]

If memory serves me correctly, on the thread I was thinking of somebody (probably Ally, Brian E or Peter P becasue these guys are always coming up with great images) posted a cool little overlay map of the original course compared to today's course.  

I remember that thread too. Whoever drew the original map deserves a Ranny (we must be falling into awards season) for Best Original Contribution to Forensic Architecture.
Here it is: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=31220;start=msg608238#msg608238

[Pete_Pittock]

That map was prepared by J N McLean. I do not have any information about him.

[Brad Klein]

Just happened to (re)play Prestwick on Sunday for the first time in a decade, and my caddie assured me that the unbunkered 13th green was the least likely to be hit in regulation on the course. I got an inkling of this when I got to my drive in the right center of the fairway, 175 to the center, with a back right flag, and my caddie said I had "no shot." Turns out there's a tiny little sliver of concave green front left I could have found, but from the right side and a back right flag I have to break my arms to work the ball enough left to right to get the ball to settle somewhere manageable, and I'm not that good.

I think it's one of those greens where you just have to manage to hit a good third shot and hope you can putt from close for par -- or in my case, for bogie.

[Norbert P]

... my caddie assured me "that the unbunkered 13th green was the least likely to be hit in regulation on the course."

 What the photo reminds me most of is that we stayed in one of those B+B's in the background.
I checked my strokesaver booklet but it doesn't reveal what I'd hoped would trigger some lucid memories.  Judging by Brad K's caddy's, Tom Doak's , and other's remarks, it seems to be in the same class as Dornoch's Foxy (14)? N. Berwick's 16th, as strange but brilliantly defensed greens?  

BTW.  I had the mis-preconception that it would be an old short course but it was brutal with the wwwinds.  And, at 6544 yards, with blindness, tall and vast rough, and funk throughout, it was a tough course for this foozler.