[Garland Bayley]

I have never said anything on this site about anyone that I would not say to their face. ...

So you would call me a racist to my face? When you do such things, the moderator deletes the thread, and you get off without any evidence. I guess that's what gives you plausible deniability.

I truly believe that each of us has a moral obligation to point out racist commentary when we see it happening both on here and in our real lives.  Racism against Aisian golfers is a problem that needs to be addressed and defended against.  The moderators have decided that this is not the forum for that discussion and decided to delete the offensive off topic thread.  I thought the thread should have been deleted base on the title alone.

So you don't care whether you are totally out to lunch, you will just continue to make your inflammatory statements with no knowledge of the facts? Apparently you aren't enough of a gentleman to apologize for your insulting behavior.

[Steve Lang]

 

Acrimony and senseless yammering.. didn't take long for this thread to enter a death spiral.. GB take it outside please..

I challenge you Tommy to get rid of the YaBB "God" to "Newbie" designations if you're serious about leveling the playing field of knowledge vs opinion vs reason vs self importance of the many voices

post script.. Sunday 29jul..TN has the power...
I liked everyone being a newbie... but its been changed back.. gods will be gods..

[Joe Hancock]

To generalize a bit more on Steve Lang's first point: Many topics don't start OT, but they end up that way because of posters and postings that have not been appropriately addressed in an IM rather than in the thread. Personal vendettas and other discrepancies that require some behind the scenes communication should happen in IM or email.

RJ nailed a lot of what's what in his post.

Joe

[Michael Whitaker]

RJ - "DITTO"

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dick and others,
Lets take this back to a few years ago when there was no such thing as a O/T required. (by who, I don't know) That's the level we need to get back to.

As far as me playing some of the more illustrious clubs, well I can answer you in two ways--

One--It's nobody's God Damn business, however, I can assure you each one of those was an invite by the member.
Two--Who was it that called me complaining about the GCA guy that stiffed you at Yeamans Hall? (which the invite turned out to be nothing more then a practical lie) Do we want more of that happening? Why should the website and it's moderators and your hosts be made responsible to protect you from that? So you can lambaste me for trying to bring this thing back together? To get it back to where it once was?

Further, didn't I do what I could do as far as finding out for you who I might have suspected who this might have been? I'm asking myself now why I even cared. (I cared because your supposed to be my FRIEND GOD DAMMIT!)

While I agree with some things you have posted in your diatribe, just remember this. This is not and has never been a democracy. There is no problem making this a much smaller forum. Any of you are free to take the grillroom-like banter/yammering and go start your own discussion group on Bravenet or some other forum. This website chooses to be one of quality and class no different then the finest club in America. We are going to get it back to that point.

(even though one of it's more outspoken moderators may not be of that ilk. You all are free to count me as the bad guy)

[Michael Whitaker]

I challenge you Tommy to get rid of the YaBB "God" to "Newbie" designations if you're serious about leveling the playing field of knowledge vs opinion vs reason vs self importance of the many voices

Boy, that didn't take long!

Where's the new bifurcated discussion board we were hearing so much about a while back?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Michael, It is still in the works, but I wouldn't call it burficated just yet. We are not sure which direction we are going to take it.

I think if anything, you of all people could and would appreciate less Michele and more Golf Course-related discussion. Certainly your participation is waning from the past, when you posted more then just often.

I'm counting on you helping me to achieve that.

[Jordan Wall]

Tommy,

I think you are right on.
About five months ago, I could have been your poster child for what you didnt want.
But, my focus has turned to gca talk and as a result I have been learning a lot and enjoying discussing gca.
If others really want to learn, I think having things as you have mentioned would be a good thing.
There are a lot of very intelligent people on this board who are great to learn from.  
It's a great board, and I hope it stays that way.

[Michael Whitaker]

...just remember this. This is not and has never been a democracy. There is no problem making this a much smaller forum. Any of you are free to take the grillroom-like banter/yammering and go start your own discussion group on Bravenet or some other forum. This website chooses to be one of quality and class no different [than] the finest club in America. We are going to get it back to that point.

Tommy - This isn't a private club, it's an open internet forum that solicits "donations" from its participants in order to stay commercial free. If you want a private club why don't you convince Ran to charge annual dues and require every participant to submit a membership application to a selection committee composed of a chosen few of the inner sanctum. Then, you could really run this place like one of the "finest clubs in America" and exclude anyone who doesn't fit your membership profile or adhere to your rules of conduct.

You said:  "Any of you are free to take the grillroom-like banter/yammering and go start your own discussion group on Bravenet or some other forum."

Be careful what you wish for, Tommy... you just might get it.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Michael,
Even before your participation here,Ran Morrisset's rule of the board was to act here like you would if you were visiting one of the finest clubs in America. We seemed to have lost that.

Why wouldn't you want to help me get that back?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Shivas, Absolutely!

[Michael Whitaker]

Tommy - If you are refering to decorum, manners, and civility then I agree wholeheartedly.

But, when you threaten to reduce the size of this forum because you don't think some of the participants are adhering to some unwritten code of conduct then I get completely turned off. Nobody sent me a set of "Ran's Rules" when I registered on this board.

I don't disagree with your aims... just your "if you don't play by my rules I'll kick you out" threats. It's a little too Clifford Roberts-like to suit me.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Does San Francisco Golf Club need a phone system like this to maintain itself as one of the world's most affluent golf clubs?



Does Merion Golf Club need beautiful Cherry Wood Raised Panel lockers in it's locker rooms?



This doesn't mean that this won't be happening....yet, but I for one would like to NOT see it happen.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tommy - What the hell did that previous post mean? You have to remember, I'm just a slow country boy from SC... that post went completely over my head.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tommy - If you are refering to decorum, manners, and civility then I agree wholeheartedly.

But, when you threaten to reduce the size of this forum because you don't think some of the participants are adhering to some unwritten code of conduct then I get completely turned off. Nobody sent me a set of "Ran's Rules" when I registered on this board.

I don't disagree with your aims... just your "if you don't play by my rules I'll kick you out" threats. It's a little too Clifford Roberts-like to suit me.

Michael, my points exactly. Help me to make it that way. (I'm no Cliffy!)

As far as Ran's Rules, the way to act here has always been prevalent. We always felt that the lack of rules was one of the benefits. Unfortunately this is the time where some rules are needed. I'm just passing them along.

I ask you (and Shivas): Help me end the political correctness and direct this site into better times.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tommy - What the hell did that previous post mean? You have to remember, I'm just a slow country boy from SC... that post went completely over my head.

It was in response to Shivas' wishes for a Grillroom.

[Michael Whitaker]

You said:  As far as Ran's Rules, the way to act here has always been prevalent. We always felt that the lack of rules was one of the benefits. Unfortunately this is the time where some rules are needed. I'm just passing them along.

Tommy, you keep refering to them, but there are no written rules. Then, with your next breath, you say that a lack of rules is a "benefit" of this site! You can't have it both ways. You either have rules or you don't. If you do have rules they need to be written and posted... and required reading for everyone who participates on this site.

As for rules, all we currently have is just a bunch of he-said, she-said stuff that pops up every time the OT topics get out of hand or someone gets pissed and divorces the forum. You can't threaten to "punish" people for breaking unwritten rules they don't know exist. Like my son informed me when he got in trouble for peeing in the pool the first time, "nobody told me not to do it!"

[Tim Bert]

You either have rules or you don't. If you do have rules they need to be written and posted... and required reading for everyone who participates on this site.

I agree with this 100%.  As this thread has emerged, it isn't becoming clear what exactly these rules are.  I really hope these rules, if this is the way we are headed, are published and enforced equitably, with no special treatment affored for some.  As one who just made his first donation this year (and currently plans to donate in the future), I'd rather have a contract and annual dues than give money and hope that I'm not cut off because a moderator disagrees with something I say.  

[Bob_Huntley]

Tommy,

Before I go off into some self-imposed exile, what is it exactly that annoyed you so much, that you felt that you had to issue a challenge?

If it wasn't for the extraneous banter that takes place here, this site would be deader than a meeting of Shakers. Shall  we discuss the vagaries of the NGLA's 6th greens' angles ad infinitum?

Answers, please.

Bob

[Mark Pearce]

Tommy,

Before I go off into some self-imposed exile, what is it exactly that annoyed you so much, that you felt that you had to issue a challenge?

If it wasn't for the extraneous banter that takes place here, this site would be deader than a meeting of Shakers. Shall  we discuss the vagaries of the NGLA's 6th greens' angles ad infinitum?

Answers, please.

Bob

Indeed.  I've participated in a number of internet fora, on topics from fine wine to rugby union.  Each has its own feel, from very civilised to a bar room I wouldn't drink in (a premiership soccer club fan forum).  What they all have in common is OT discussion.  Remove all OT discussion and you remove much of that character.  I've seen sites "bifurcate" to take OT topics elsewhere and they are never the same (or as good) afterwards.

Moderating these boards requires the wisdom of Solomon and is an unenviable task but over prescription leads to strangulation and death.  Perhaps a quiet word with offenders, rather than oblique prescription?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Michael,
I've even explained to you in previous posts that the manner here should be no different then if you were in the finest club in America (Ran's long time rule) How much more explaining do you need?

This has always been the rule of this website's discussion group and many older members know this, so to make it especially easy for yourself, go by that rule from now on.

Tim,
This isn't about making anyone do anything that they don't want to do. This is about trying to reel-in the discussions and tighten them up. Make them better. This is a golf course architecture site, where once in a while we stumbled on to something that was related to other great things related and non-related to golf. There are just too many complaints about college football threads, soccer threads and the like. And while it is easy to just avoid them by not clicking on them, over half of you that don't post on these types of threads don't like them on this GOLF site.

As Mark Pearce as noted, it isn't easy dealing with complaints about threads, complaints about people, complaints about access, this guy didn't pay this, this guy didn't show-up for that. and so many other different things. However, I'm in agreement that keeping it on one subject can be sometimes a quick recipe for stagnation. However, I think the problem lies more in behavior.

This website never once had to face these issues, and my challenge was simple: talk golf architecture and see what you can learn or share which will make this be the beacon of light that furthers the art and changes the future. Who give a damn about Michele Wie or What Tiger said to Arnie especially if it isn't golf course architecture related. Just recently we had a thread where someone was critical of a certain private club. Another person went after this opinion with vim and vigor, enough that it was removed. In the old days we could be critical, and we did it in hopes of architects making the art, THEIR ART, better. Now we get threats of racism, screams of bias, and the blows of bad behavior. I could go on and on.

Bob, I'll address you either in an IM or on the phone tomorrow. I want to say something that needs to be said, and honestly, it's no one else's business. Please let me know a good time to call.

[Tony_Muldoon]

the manner here should be no different then if you were in the finest club in America

Tommy if that's the rule then that should be on the opening page.  If it's up there then anyone can be a moderator asking others to tone it down or let it be.  

Even if you don't want to write a constitution then to achieve a change you need to have some statement of intent.  Like others my understanding was that there were no rules and as in every other club I've ever been a part of, I thought personality clashes and persons leaving were just the way things are in real life.


(PS what's with the 'American' club anyway?  I thought you guys believed in writing constitutions down? O/T? )

[Mike Sweeney]

Tommy,

Before I go off into some self-imposed exile, what is it exactly that annoyed you so much, that you felt that you had to issue a challenge?

If it wasn't for the extraneous banter that takes place here, this site would be deader than a meeting of Shakers. Shall  we discuss the vagaries of the NGLA's 6th greens' angles ad infinitum?

Answers, please.

Bob

Tommy,

In the last few days, you have removed a GCA participant without ever directly communicating with him who in the last year has:

* hosted many GCAers at his own Top 100 golf club

* is hosting a "blind" (never met him) GCA participant on Wednesday at his club despite being tossed off GCA

* organized and ran an unofficial GCA/Golfweek outing at Mountain Lake that was attended by numerous participants here and Golfweek including: Brad Klein, Jonathon Cummings, Scott Wood, Daryl Boe, Tiger Bernhardt, Bill McBride, Mike Policano, myself, a variety of the Board of Mountain Lake that has been very friendly to many members of this GCA group, and many others that may not want to be mentioned here. I remember Brad Klein issuing an email to the group giving his thanks that he did not have to set up the tee times for this assortment of characters who all want to be in the first group!

* arranged a Fishers Island trip for Bob Huntley that Bob called one of his Top 5 experiences. Arranged another Long Island trip for Bob Huntley that unfortunately had to be rescheduled.

* has acted as the "front man" for members of two "top 5 clubs on GCA" that simply don't want to deal with all the craziness of organizing these trips, but do appreciate hosting people who are truely grateful of seeing their courses.

* has sent in a GCA contribution for 5 straight years.

Tommy, you NEVER once communicated with this person by phone, email or IM. You better than anyone know how unappreciated the organizers of these events are from participants. In the words of Bob Huntley, "Answers please?"

[Kalen Braley]

Tommy,

Having used numerous other sites, IMO restructing the site into sections would greatly reduce the complaints about Off Topics.  

Simply put for those who don't want to read these, they never even have to see a one of them. This worked well for a online game site and I never even visited 1/2 of the total categories. But I still got all of the information I needed as I checked the sections I was interested in and wasn't forced to wade thru other threads...

Other threads it could cut down are the ones about "I'll be in town on such and such date, where should I play".  There would be a section for that, as well a section for course reviews. Or a section for new projects, ODG courses, etc, etc.  

But most importantly a section for pure architecture talk.  

[Kyle Harris]

I oppose breaking the site into sections. It's not the location of the OT topics that are the problem, it's the time it takes to post on the subject.

I try to keep my pulse on the nature of the discussion of the board in order to time when I want to introduce topics about golf architecture for discussion. Almost two years ago, I started a thread on the amount of time a golf course needs to let pass before the architecture reaches full potential.

It got no responses over the course of the first few months and a bump or two from 20th page oblivion. FINALLY, after my third bump, it generated some good discussion.

Considering that one of the supposed sacred cow architects of the so-called GCA.com cognoscenti responded to the question of what makes a golf course great with one word, "time,"  I figured this was both a germaine and good topic from the discussion board.

While it is not my place to state the objective of the site, I've always come here with the priority of discussing golf courses and golf architecture. Nowhere on this website does it say this is a forum for ANY golf topic. This is not a general golf forum, and this is not a grillroom, where any subject can be discussed. This is not a forum regarding players, golf clubs (the weapon), or clubs (the group of people).

Next time the urge to start a thread on Michelle Wie happens, I suggest the poster remember that and take the discussion to a more general golf discussion group. I'd be much more inclined to post and respond to posts if I knew some of the more keen minds on this site were willing to devote their time to golf course and architecture discussion and not their opinions as to whether or not Michelle Wie should use the lavatory between the 9th and 10th tees, or risk offending her playing partners by going on the 12th tee.

It's frustrating watching time get wasted discussing OT threads when perfectly good golf architecture threads go by the wayside because it's easier to not have to actually think or contribute anything of substance.

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