[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

It is my understanding that the originalrouting and design of Kingsbarns called for a double-green serving 6 & 16 and a man-made burn that would meander down from above.

There was a great deal of debate over this and strong opinions were bandied about until they discovered an existing "condie," a Roman era water course under ground running exactly in front of the proposed 18th green and meandering down to the sea. It ran directly under what would have been the proposed center of the double green for 6 & 16.

The two choices thet were left with were to repipe the condie and bury it underneath the new green(s) or to redesign the area and create separate greens for 6 & 16 with the watercourse now visible and slightly enlarged.

The reason given for not repiping and burying was because of possible future drain problems that might require the greens to be excavated to do the repairs. (Evidently the course of the condie meandered a bit with many small curves.)

So even though having a blind water hazard behind and alongside the green(s) here isn't preferred, weren't the choices they were left with because of the existing unknown architectural feature of the condie were few?

[Rich Goodale]

If they'd never reversed the Old Course, I bet just about every golf course would have at least one hole with a hidden stream behind the green........

[Mark Bourgeois]

Kingsbarns also has great chicken salad for the American that can't eat the other Scottish cuisine. I had to get a couple for the road.

...then it's another indicator of an Americanized course: my wife ordered "chicken salad" in Elie 25 years ago.  Out came a salad with a piece of chicken on top.

Or is this just another example of globalization?

PS Good one Farnie!

[Brent Hutto]

When I was in Surrey and Kent last summer I discovered that anything of the form "X Salad" ordered in England will consist of mixed veg with "X" on top. Ham, egg, turkey, chicken, etc. It worked out well because it was high summer and many places seemed to use fresh local produce.

I think the term for what we call "Chicken Salad" would be "Chicken Mayo" or something like that. But everywhere I went there was some place that had things like "Chicken Mayo" with the option of getting it on a "Jacket Potato", which is basically a baked potato, instead of on bread. Quite yummy, actually.

[Tom_Doak]

Phil:

I do not mean to be picking apart Kingsbarns, I really don't; I was answering a question about blind water.

But, since you asked, when they discovered the water course they could have kept it underground, or they could have redesigned either hole to use the water hazard more effectively.  They chose to have the water hazard be blind and in play; in fact Mark Parsinen was excited about it the first time he showed it to me.

[James Bennett]

If they'd never reversed the Old Course, I bet just about every golf course would have at least one hole with a hidden stream behind the green........

Richard

I understand the hole you are referring to, intimitely in fact.  At least you can retrieve a ball from the burn.  I know this for a fact.

However, under the original 'reverse' routing, the current first green didn't exist.  17's Road green was used for the first and the seventeeth holes.  I presume the first green was only built AFTER the order of play was reversed.

James

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom, that makes a LOT MORE SENSE as I had misunderstood the intent of your answer. My mistake.

I am glad that you mad emention of it being Marks decision as the final design answer. There were many ideas and for good or bad he had the final word. This is important because down the road of history those who will question why this water feature is where it is will do so at Kyle's expense while those who praise it willd do like wise.

That decision was explained as youmentioned in the mss.

[Mike Benham]

Neither of which was my golfer

So I am walking down the first fairway at Kingsbarn in early May 2004, a caddy walks over to me and says ...

[Rich Goodale]

If they'd never reversed the Old Course, I bet just about every golf course would have at least one hole with a hidden stream behind the green........

Richard

I understand the hole you are referring to, intimitely in fact.  At least you can retrieve a ball from the burn.  I know this for a fact.

However, under the original 'reverse' routing, the current first green didn't exist.  17's Road green was used for the first and the seventeeth holes.  I presume the first green was only built AFTER the order of play was reversed.

James

James

You are wrong.  The current 1st green was built in 1870, when the reverse routing was the preferred one.  After it was built, both the reverse and non-reverse courses were in play, in alternate weeks.  It was several years later when the non-reverse course was adopted as the standard way to play the links.

Helpfully

Rich

[Tom_Doak]

Rich:

Thanks for that background.  Based on the timing of the new green, and the move away from the left-handed course, it could well be that having water behind the green caused the abandonment of the left-handed routing!

It was certainly my least favorite hole of the lot when I played it in April -- and yes, I hit it in the water there to wreck a great back nine.

[Rich Goodale]

Thank you, Tom.  My sources tell me that the reason (or one of them) for abandoning the old routing was the fact that the 1st and 18th tees shots crossed.

Rich

PS--I knew there was something personal about that antipathy to the hidden-burn-behind-the-green fearure!

RFG

[James Bennett]

The approach to the first green but in reverse ....


and a not uncommon outcome .... (I have one thing in common with Tom Doak, apparently  although I was not having a great back nine)


James B

[Marty Bonnar]

Nice Bag, Jimmy B - but buy a hat like that and get a free bowl of soup...........Is it possible that ones poor play can be attributed to the choice of ones playing partners attire?

I'd plum fergit that you found the watter there! Michael C and me and Caddie Walsh were only too pleased to find the green - eventually!

FBD.

[Michael Christensen]

wait a minute...I made par there!

wonder if the coon skin hat made it back down under?

[G Jones]

...I believe that the old Scots agreed with me ... you hardly ever see a burn right behind the green on any of the great old links.

I am Scottish, and after heavy drinking last night my joints feel pretty old, so here are my thoughts...

While I agree with the point you're making, the fact that you rarely get water hazards behind greens on old scottish courses is much more due to the fact that even nowadays when playing downwind on a dry links hole, with modern technology putting a degree of spin on the ball, it is still easy to run through a green... and remember that over 100 years ago balls didn't fly with as much backspin, trajectories were lower, greens would have been harder and drier at the height of summer, and playing with clubs with grooves on the face was considered cheating.

Having a water hazard behind a green back then would have been very very nasty. Nowadays it's just a bit mean.  

[Tom_Doak]

G:  Yes, I meant all of that.  Thanks for doing the legwork for me.

[Kalen Braley]

...I believe that the old Scots agreed with me ... you hardly ever see a burn right behind the green on any of the great old links.

I am Scottish, and after heavy drinking last night my joints feel pretty old, so here are my thoughts...

While I agree with the point you're making, the fact that you rarely get water hazards behind greens on old scottish courses is much more due to the fact that even nowadays when playing downwind on a dry links hole, with modern technology putting a degree of spin on the ball, it is still easy to run through a green... and remember that over 100 years ago balls didn't fly with as much backspin, trajectories were lower, greens would have been harder and drier at the height of summer, and playing with clubs with grooves on the face was considered cheating.

Having a water hazard behind a green back then would have been very very nasty. Nowadays it's just a bit mean.  

Or if you're Mr. Dye, you can just be as nasty as you want to be and build a hole, TPC 17, that features water in the aforementioned as well as the sides.  

[Tony Ristola]

Kalen,

Not just the TPC... it seems like water behind the green doesn't bother the Dye family too much. Old Marsh's 5th is blind to a somewhat shallow green with Aqua behind.

[Brian Phillips]

Isn't that the beauty of the 6th hole that is is so in tune with modern technology yet still a classic hole?

We have an ex-caddie on here saying he can count on on his two hands the number of times he has seen someone hit the burn at the back and yet we have one of the great modern architects worrying about it.

I think that is great design.

As his mentor said if you get them thinking then you have them...

[Andrew Mitchell]

I played there in June with fellow GCA member Sean Walsh.  Considering it rained heavily overnight and the course was closed until 12 noon, it was in excellent condition, with only one of the upper fairways (14th) being damp underfoot.

 
The par 3 8th green from the tee.  The pin was on the left half of the green, being the lower plateau.  This is the easier side being accessible from two angles, either directly at the flag or by using the green contours to feed down the slope.


Another par 3 - the famous 15th.  The green looks scarily narrow from the tee but even with that right hand pin position there is 25 yards of depth to land and hold the tee shot.  The bail out shot is to the left.


The par 5 16th. At 504 yards from the medal tees and 481 from the regulars this is reachable in two when the course is running or with a following wind. The front fairway bunker threatens the drive.  The burn behind the 6th which Tom Doak referred to on an earlier page also runs behind 16.


The 18th green with the ancient burn threatening the underhit approach. I found that if you tug your shot right of the green then it will run down off the bank and finish close to a front right flag

[Adrian_Stiff]

If they'd never reversed the Old Course, I bet just about every golf course would have at least one hole with a hidden stream behind the green........

Richard

I understand the hole you are referring to, intimitely in fact.  At least you can retrieve a ball from the burn.  I know this for a fact.

However, under the original 'reverse' routing, the current first green didn't exist.  17's Road green was used for the first and the seventeeth holes.  I presume the first green was only built AFTER the order of play was reversed.

James

James

You are wrong.  The current 1st green was built in 1870, when the reverse routing was the preferred one.  After it was built, both the reverse and non-reverse courses were in play, in alternate weeks.  It was several years later when the non-reverse course was adopted as the standard way to play the links.

Helpfully

Rich

James is actually right.  Firstly the original course pre 1870 was much more central anyway, but the 1st and 17th were a double green. Tom M widened the course and made a number of changes, mainly because of the amount of play. The idea of the new 1st green allowed the right hand routing. Very quickly the right hand routing became the prefered course, the old left handed circuit was infrequently used. It is never clear where the 1885 Open was actually played over the left course or not, (TM says he forgot to change the course back) but if it was Strath's self DQ from the playoff ( Bob Martin won)was because he hit spectators behind the road hole green, so the 17th was played to the green we know today, even if the left route was used. The current 1st green was not part of the original layout, though it may have been used later as the 17th green on the lefthand circuit because of conjestion on the relatively narrow 17th fairway.

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