Please define the term "uninspired green complexes"?

[Brett_Morrissy]

I have noticed recently, the use of the term "uninspired" to describe some green complex designs. This is unlikely to be a new phenomenon, but only just popped up for me.

Conversely, what is the inspiration for great complexes?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Uninspired:
Mailed in
Flat/very level
Looks good in a drawing but having no depth
No relationship to outside the green complex
One that doesn't function/drain well
Boring straight putts
Built with GPS - just kidding here...

[Mark Johnson]

Agree with Mike, though i think the term is very overused.

Great example is harbortown.   Often their greens are called uninspired mainly because they are small and dont have a ton of undulation.   However, their small size is exactly what makes them great and forces precision on approach shots that dont look as hard as they actually are.

Another example is BPB.   While the green there are bigger, much of the breaks are subtle.   I guess if there isnt a biarritz or hogsback, then greens are boring

[jeffwarne]

Agree with Mike, though i think the term is very overused.

Great example is harbortown.   Often their greens are called uninspired mainly because they are small and dont have a ton of undulation.   However, their small size is exactly what makes them great and forces precision on approach shots that dont look as hard as they actually are.

Another example is BPB.   While the green there are bigger, much of the breaks are subtle.   I guess if there isnt a biarritz or hogsback, then greens are boring

Is the term "overused" or are there just lots of uninspiring green complex designs.
I'd argue the latter.

[Sam Morrow]

Can an uninspired green complex also have lots of movement but it's just kind of thrown together with no real reason or flow?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

On the other hand...are greens with tremendous undulations....some might even say too severe, any more inspired than the "flat" greens of Harbour Town.
For instance the greens at last weekends matchplay,certainly looked very severe and in my opinion too segemented, too many severe slopes...does that make them more inspiring just because they make the game more difficult....?

[Melvyn Morrow]

“Uninspiring for green complexes”

Seems to have deserted the following, with some believing they were designing theme parks, Disney Land or Lego Land but certainly not golf courses and we wonder why people are leaving the game. Perhaps when designing the following some forgot the old saying “You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all the people all of the time”. Or being kind let’s call it the Dark Ages or Picasso Age of Golf when the designers parted with GCA


 










Inspiration for great complexes – alas no, more like devoid of thought or ideas to produce such questionable designs, worst still, club owners and developers must have approved them as they have been built. I feel the need for mass prays and beg the forgiveness for these designers saying ‘Forgive them Father for they know not what they are doing’ 

Uninspiring Green Complexes may be the result of not just the design but the underling land which lacked inspiration in the first place. Certainly not assisted by the modern approach of totalling stripping back the land before reforming it in an abstract form, leaving questions re its sustainability as a golf course. The land needs to convey golf when being considered for a golf course due to a lacking in retaining the natural inspiration which should have been the reason for its selection in the first place. 

[Kalen Braley]

I'm inspired....I'll be playing here again in a couple of months in a 36 hole event.

[Melvyn Morrow]

What a repetitive 36 Hole Event, the message must be getting boring Kalen. 

Post how many lost balls/penalty strokes you suffer on that Island Green - please

[jeffwarne]

On the other hand...are greens with tremendous undulations....some might even say too severe, any more inspired than the "flat" greens of Harbour Town.
For instance the greens at last weekends matchplay,certainly looked very severe and in my opinion too segemented, too many severe slopes...does that make them more inspiring just because they make the game more difficult....?

Michael,
I haven't played Dove Mtn,but the greens did appear busy and difficult.
I like contouring, but I prefer an overall slope, or several overall slopes so that placement of your previous shot matters.
Those greens looked consistently random on TV and it would appear a one to two yard error in yardage resulted in a variety of outcomes (maybe not the case and I might feel differently if I saw them in person)
Very few people play golf that way(hitting it exact yardages) so it's wasted/no fun concept to me if used repetitively.
Additionally, you can get the same effect for tournament players by selecting certain pins on greens not quite so consistently busy.

As you stated ,difficult doesn't mean inspired, in fact an inspired green could prove quite easy if approached form the proper angle with the proper shot.
To me inspired means a lot of thought goes into how the greens are built/found in relation to where the shots are coming in from,and how much challenge was required on the previous shot to get into that position.
But not always,because that would be repetitive.
Occasionally a great natural feature either in the approach or the green might dictate that the two not match up exactly(but when they do greatness occurs), or the architect may simply introduce a bit of randomness into the green.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jeff,
You said exactly what I was thinking..it appears we have the same thoughts on what a green and its complex should be.
I hate this whole "quadrant" green concept, where as you said three yards offline puts you into another time zone almost.
It appears to me that Mr Mackenzie's greens although very undulating did not fall into this mode, and I think only some changes to Augusta a long time after his death has resulted in several of those greens almost being "quadrant" in playablility.
I think of the greens at SAND HILLS as being inspired, they flow with the surrounding land, have some severe slopes for
 certain but not really that many super specific landing areas without landing in which, leaves you with a decent putt.

i am all for missclubbing creating a potential three putt, but when a shot is hit the correct distance and is less than 5 yards offline, and the resultant puut is a forty footer over three different breaks....really!!!!

[Kalen Braley]

What a repetitive 36 Hole Event, the message must be getting boring Kalen. 

Post how many lost balls/penalty strokes you suffer on that Island Green - please

Its actually quite a fun course to play as it has several shortish holes, 3.5s and 4.5s...being a resort course and all.  And the fairways are usually in better condition/more puttable than most greens on a municipal course!

Last time I put two in the drink on the Island Green...I'm hoping to lose none this time around.

P.S.  I'll be sure to take a tribute picture for you when I go!!   

[Kalen Braley]

When I read the words "uninspired green complexes", I always think of something like this at a joe blow muni course.

1)  Flat green, round in shape
2)  1 or 2 flat and shallow bunkers that are usually oval or some other conventional shape.
3)  No real detriment to where you miss the green.
4)  Just totally a mail-in job...

[Anthony Gray]

  No challenge. Not memerable.

 

 

[Adam Clayman]

Can an uninspired green complex also have lots of movement but it's just kind of thrown together with no real reason or flow?

Sam, I think so.

 Without the internal contours, wild greens are usually just a pass fail exercise. (Think Dismal River Version 1.0)

Where an inspired green would allow the golfer, to creatively figure out, how to accomplish the task at hand.

[Kalen Braley]

Perhaps my definition is a little different...

...but I give points for an architect when they at least try, even if the results are over-the-top or don't always work as intended.

The uninspired greens are the ones that are usually flat, round or oval shapes, and there appeared to be little to no interest or effort to at least make something somewhat interesting as it concerns approach angle, preferred landing areas, can't miss spots, etc.

We can't all expect every course to have ANGC, Oakmont, or Pine Valley greens, but we can and should expect the architect to try to give us something interesting.

[Ronald Montesano]

Greens whose architect was handcuffed by finances and the demand to keep the mowing budget low.

Greens with long, predictable putts that trace a gentle arc devoid of challenge.

Inverted-saucer greens with fall-off all around at a similar angle/slope.

Greens you could successfully putt in your sleep.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Art Hills  lol Joking but figured it would get a laugh.

[Jud_T]

Uninspired:

Built with GPS