[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

I think perhaps you're reacting to C&C sycophants in your criticism of Bandon Trails #7 through #13 tee (why you distinguish between the tee shot on #13 and the approach, I really don't understand).  

I'd nominate #8 and #12 as being very fine holes, with #7, #9, #10 and #11 also offering something of interest.  You're right--that stretch of holes is not the strength of the course, but I think thou doth protest too much.  

BTW, I agree with you that Bandon Dunes gets a lot of unjustified criticism here.  Its weaker holes are probably the weakest at the resort, but it has a lot of underrated holes too.  For example, two holes away from the ocean, #7 and #11, are some of my favorites--they're on the subtle side and not as dramatic as some of the standouts on Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails, but I think they're very well done.  

[rjsimper]

The middle holes are good holes but they lack any real aspect of uniqueness that would put them in good company with what takes place prior and towards the very end of the round.

This I agree with...as I stated above I think they are the weaker holes on the course, and I agree that it's noticeably so, but I do not think they are objectively "really weak" as you said at first.

The 7th I actually like quite a bit - its one of the more challenging approaches made so by the elevation.  The 8th feels like its ripped out of New England (which doesn't make it bad...just not unique).

The 9th, to me, is one of the weakest holes at the resort.  It's non-remarkable, the green is blah, and the strange pinch at the prime-layup zone seems like a poor excuse for defense on a hole stretched over land that otherwise has none.

10 again has no real reason to be in Bandon, but this doesn't make it a bad hole - to me the strategy of this tee shot is one of the best on the course....bail right and come in over the waste bunker, take the aggressive line and carry the left junk but reward yourself with a better angle to the green.  Add the bonus that the hole rewards different shot shapes off the tee and to the green and it's a demanding and solid strategic hole.  But no, nothing about it makes it unique to Bandon.

11 I think takes a lot of unnecessary heat for the pond, but were that ocean I think that we'd be calling this hole world-class.

12 I mentioned earlier - I love the hump right of the green.  It makes the hole for me.

The interior holes are not unique to the area, they could be on any course anywhere in the Northeast...they are the weaker holes, as a group, on the course, and criticism of them as not living up to the standards elsewhere I believe is merited...there's just a difference between criticizable and "really weak", to me.  Seems we agree on this at least.  

I'd rather play 7-12 at BT any day over 7-11 at BD.

[Tim Pitner]

I'd rather play 7-12 at BT any day over 7-11 at BD.

Ryan,

You're killing me--excepting #9, the stretch of holes from #7 to #12 at Bandon Dunes is my favorite part of the course.  

[rjsimper]

I'd rather play 7-12 at BT any day over 7-11 at BD.

Ryan,

You're killing me--excepting #9, the stretch of holes from #7 to #12 at Bandon Dunes is my favorite part of the course.  

Really - that's surprising to me!

7 at BD to me is just a mindless wood off the tee and a short iron or wedge to the green.  Sure, the green is kind of quirky, but that's not saying too much.

8 at BD is a tee shot look repeated at the 3rd, 10th, and 14th, and the only value (albeit good value) is to be had in the second shot which I think is exceptional.

9 we agree is subpar.

10 is kind of cool coming into the green, but the strategy of this hole doesn't seem to work for me as I see no reason to play left - blast it up the right and then play a short club over the berm to the green.

11 is still somewhat of a mystery to me whether I like it or not - I like the fact that bunkers challenge you off the tee no matter what yardage you play it.

Much like BT, I don't think these are bad holes, just maybe the weaker stretch out there 1-5 to me are very good, as are 12-16 (13 is pretty so-so).

[Tim Pitner]

Ryan,

I seem to recall that you're a strong player (compared to my shaky 9 hdcp) and that may have something to do with our respective takes on these holes.

I find #7 interesting because you should take a line further to the left than most people think.  Players coming in from the right are faced with a very difficult shot and I've seen some half-decent shots punished by the severe slope to the right.  

#8 is somewhat similar in that, although the fairway is very wide, there are spots you don't want to be.  Too far left is always no good because of the dunes on the left and, depending on the pin position, too far right can be a problem too.  As you say, the 2nd shot is a very interesting one with a lot of options.  

#10 is a hole I haven't quite figured out.  Blasting over the bunkers to the right is the play I've tried the most, but haven't made any birdies taking that route.  I think going left does give you a better angle at the green, but I understand that since the 2nd shot from the right is played with such a short club, the better angle may not be needed.  

I think #11 is a great hole.  I love the bunkers in play off the tee and the greenside pot bunker is a gem, much like the single bunker on #12 in that it totally dominates your thinking about the shot.  

Maybe I'm just a sucker for pot bunkers (although #7 is bunkerless), but this stretch of the course is the one that feels the most different from typical U.S. courses and the most Scottish in character.  

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tim,

I agree:

#11 is the most demanding hole on the course IMHO. The shape of the green and placement of the greenside bunker require you to hug the left side of the fairway. This is not an easy task due to gentle angle of the fairway bunkers.

If the hole is cut anywhere but the front third of the green, then a shot from the right side of the fairway is nearly impossible (if you are planning to hit and hold the green).

One day with a back flag, three people in our group were on the right side of the fairway and did not even attempt a shot at the green. Instead, they opted to play long and right of the green and try to get up and down for par. Two out of the three were successful.

This happened to be a day that featured a rare south wind on the summer.

EDIT:  I would hardly call that "9" handicap you carry shaky!

[rjsimper]

Tim -

The only things I take issue with in your breakdown are these two:

7 - I agree with you, except that the hole is a one-trick pony in that regard.  Once you've played it, you know the answer there.  I think this is part of the reason why BD at first was my favorite course and has since fallen back from that status.

And...

10 - Its a hole that conceptually would work except to me the carry (except into the wind) is just not dangerous enough up the right, and the second shot is SO much shorter, that it doesn't really make the left play an option.  Were the shot up the right a little more difficult/demanding (even if there was a single gorse bush around the 240-250 mark in the right rough) then it might not be such a no brainer.

I think my biggest issue with BD is that its the easiest to figure out of the three courses.  There are a few shots and holes that are one-trick ponies that, once known, lose some of the intrigue.  Even a hole I like, 16, depends in large part on intimidation of wondering if you can get to the upper fairway, and then once you realize that it's much shorter/easier than you think, the hole's not half as scary as it was.

11 is the one hole I hesitated to include in the group, as I said I haven't really figured it out...and maybe, as I have been talking about above with the one-trick pony analogy, that means I really think highly of it.  That's certainly possible!

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

In regards to BT -- when no less than one-third of the layout is a good step or two behind what comes before the 7th and from the 14th on -- you have a course that is lacking in terms of the total picture.

I don't see the original 18 as anything less than the solid #2 course at the facility. C&C did a marvelous job in so many ways with the Trails -- but if their names were all of sudden removed as the design tandem the overall opinion of so many who gush about the place would be a good bit less.

Candidly, there is a herd mentality in a number of quarters here on GCA -- particularly when certain people are discussed.

Tim P:

Let's just say I don't protest too much. The Trails is a fine layout but no less than one-third of the course is a good bit less than what comes before and after that part of the course.

You and I do agree about the original 18 though.

In regards to the tee shot at #13 it's simply pedestrian. The real deal begins with the approach to one of the better internal greens at the course.

[Tim Pitner]

EDIT:  I would hardly call that "9" handicap you carry shaky!

Wyatt,

You just haven't played with me enough yet.  

Ryan,

I generally agree with your recent comments but, regarding the one-trick pony remarks, I wonder if one might not be able to say the same thing about some other holes at the resort (for example, BT 14 or PD 9 or even PD 6--all great holes IMO).  Plus, for me at least, knowing where I should hit it and being able to do so are two different things.  Sometimes, knowing the correct line and the downfalls of failing to hit it there make things more difficult, not less.  

I'd say that BD has fewer contours in the fairways and in the greens than the other two courses and its features are generally less dramatic.  For these reasons, this crowd will rate it lower.  Oh, and it doesn't have hairy bunkers, which is a major strike against it in GCA-land.  As I've said, I love the bunkering on the course, especially on holes like #11 and #12 where a single bunker makes such an impact.  

[Tim Bert]

I agree that there is a lull in the middle of Trails, but for me that lull ends at 12 rather than 13.  I think 13 is a really cool par four.

Bandon Dunes has been taking a ripping on here by many (in relative terms to the others.)  After the third trip, it definitely doesn't carry the weight in my mind that it carried the first time around, but I still really enjoy it.  I would still want to play it multiple times on future trips (2 is probably sufficient.)  With the wind out there, BD is the only course of the three where I'm completely comfortable on the tee.  I'm not always looking for easy, but the way PD and BT beat me up, I've got to post a decent score somewhere.

As evidenced by this recent trip, I'm willing to pass on Trails after one play.  The course is spectacular, but even after playing Pacific Dunes most frequently on each of the last two trips, I'm still longing for more.  Unfortunately, Trails is the one that takes the hit for our group.  I would never travel all the way out there without making the effort to get around once, but after that all bets are off.

[Eric Olsen]

We all very much enjoyed the Trails on our recent trip to Bandon.  It was my third time playing it, and we were all suprised by how much we enjoyed the course.  Agree that number 9 is the weakest hole.

With respect to Bandon Dunes, I think that they have the green tees set too far forward.  Number 3, for example, played as a long par 4, with several of us hitting irons into it.  Once we moved to the black tees, the course presents itself much better.

Pacific is still the best, although one of our group liked it least.  Of course, it was his first time around, and he failed to break 90 any time around Pacific.

[Mike Benham]

Matt -

My visit it to Bandon earlier this year was full of rain when I played BD and PD, while the rounds at BT were relatively dry.  

Not that the conditions would cloud by judgement (pun intended) but I think we can analyze each course based on individual categories or what each course does well (or not well).

To that point, I liked the contours of the greens at BT better then PD or BD.

Mike

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