Lawsonia/Straits/Erin Hills

[Jon Spaulding]

If one had time for only one round of golf in this general area, which of the three would get the nod and why?

[CHrisB]

After seeing all 3 for the first time earlier this summer, for a single round of golf I would recommend Erin Hills, although they could all fall under the category of "must-plays".

I guess Whistling Straits was too bizarre-looking and unnatural-looking for my tastes--just knowing that practically everything out there is man-made, with no real attempt to make it look natural, turned me off for some reason. I don't have a strong desire to return there to play.

Lawsonia was great and I'd go back in a minute (I could spend a whole week there), but except for the 7th hole there is nothing so unique or original that I hadn't seen something like it before.

But Erin Hills, even with its flaws (which aren't too big of a deal in my opinion--Cruden Bay has flaws too but it is one of my all-time favorites), is completely unique and original, unlike anything I have seen.

[Brian Cenci]

Lawsonia isn't a must play as compared to Whistling or Erin Hills.  If cost is an option, Lawsonia is a solid course but if it's a choice of 3, IMO you should only be thinking about two of them.

-Brian

[Brian Cenci]

I guess Whistling Straits was too bizarre-looking and unnatural-looking for my tastes--just knowing that practically everything out there is man-made, with no real attempt to make it look natural, turned me off for some reason. I don't have a strong desire to return there to play.

I suppose when Donald Ross showed up at Pinehurst all the greens were already there with 1/10 inch grass and all the fairways were lined with bunkers and there were flat tee areas?  If not, guess what....it's man made.

I get a kick when people talk about it looking "unnatural", "man-made" or my personnal favorite, "contrived".  You can't design a golf course without it looking somewhat unnatural or know that it was in fact "man made".  I suppose when Doak showed up at Pacific Dunes the gorse bushes parted like the red sea too.

-Brian

[Jon Spaulding]

I did play the Straits in 2002; in a stiff wind. Loved the course, in a sick kind of way. Vowed to return to exercise scoring demons. This was before I was aware of Lawsonia, and Erin Hills was a twinkle in the owner's eye.

BC, which of the two is the winner, or is it a push?

[Eric_Terhorst]

Jon,

On another thread, William King brings our attention to this review of EH, which I think is well-written and objective.  

http://members.iquest.net/~jagriffin/erinhills/ehreview.htm

Maybe the review will help you decide.

Quote:
The Bad
   1. Pace of Play – 5 hours for a walking threesome with a caddie.  Kept pace with a twosome in a cart.  Despite being asked to treat the long fescue as a lateral hazard, people still looked for balls way too long.  It’s thigh-deep, you don’t want to find it, drop and move on.  ***I was told by staff that 5+ hours is normal.***

I was told the same thing by staff.  Management has apparently decided that a 5-hour round is acceptable.  The design of the course, especially with the long distances from green to tee,  promotes a 5-hour marathon, so I assume the owner and architects also thought that was OK.  That absolutely makes me ill.

I won't go back to EH unless I can get off the tee first...

[Jon Spaulding]

That's quite a review. There were some good threads here a while back on EH, but have not seen all 3 courses classified against one another.

5 hours, walking is frightening.

[Brad Swanson]

Hi Jon,
   I had a clever, Nick Bakay-esque "Tale of the Tape" comparison of Erin Hills versus Lawsonia that was hijacked mid-post by my spouse and lost in the internet ether last night.  The bottom line was that Erin Hills is controversial (the main controversy coming from its elevated status from the USGA versus the work in the dirt IMHO) and draws a range of opinions.  I think Brian Cenci is the only person I have heard that doesn't glow about Lawsonia after playing there.  I've yet to play Erin Hills (and I only live a little over an hour drive, if that is any indication of where I stand) so I can only comment from what I've heard form others about Erin Hills.  Conditioning may be better at Lawsonia, although the greens are a little slow for many.  Lawsonia sounds like it is a much easier walk.  Pace of play will be better at Lawsonia.  It is possible that you could have the course to yourself in the afternoon at Lawsonia.  I have before, and this is a really fun experience.  Erin Hills will be more challenging if you are looking for a ball-buster round.  As far as the unique factor, I think they both qualify there.  Either way, you'll have an interesting round of golf.

Cheers,
Brad  

[CHrisB]

I guess Whistling Straits was too bizarre-looking and unnatural-looking for my tastes--just knowing that practically everything out there is man-made, with no real attempt to make it look natural, turned me off for some reason. I don't have a strong desire to return there to play.

I suppose when Donald Ross showed up at Pinehurst all the greens were already there with 1/10 inch grass and all the fairways were lined with bunkers and there were flat tee areas?  If not, guess what....it's man made.

I get a kick when people talk about it looking "unnatural", "man-made" or my personnal favorite, "contrived".  You can't design a golf course without it looking somewhat unnatural or know that it was in fact "man made".  I suppose when Doak showed up at Pacific Dunes the gorse bushes parted like the red sea too.

-Brian

Brian,

Sorry, that's just the way I feel about Whistling Straits (though again it still could be considered a "must-play"). And I should say that normally I don't even care one way or the other about whether a course has an "unnatural" or "man-made" look to it. But Whistling Straits was different for some reason--it really was jarring to my eye. I didn't go there looking to be disappointed in any way--it was just the way I reacted once there.

Sure, Pinehurst and Pac Dunes are man-made creations, but Doak didn't create any of the dunes on that property and comparing Pinehurst to Whistling Straits is really an apples-to-oranges comparison (Pinehurst was never built as a tribute to the great links courses of Ireland).

I would challenge you or anyone to go visit some of the links courses built over and around natural "dunescapes"--courses like Royal Country Down, Ballybunion, Lahinch, Royal Portrush, Cruden Bay, etc.--then return to Whistling Straits and compare the looks. I think then you'll be able to appreciate how I could get the impression I did at WS.

[Dan Moore]

Even though I grew up in Wisconsin, for the reasons Chris cites (and the very high cost compared to Lawsonia) I have never played the Straits.  If I'm going to pay that amount I will wait and spend it on the real thing in Scotland, England or Ireland.  I could only laugh when they panned away from the course with the blimp shots at the Senior Open to see the typical Wisconsin farmland surrounding the Straits Course.  

If you are looking for fun and a great value Lawsonia wins hands down.  If you want to see something new while having your game challenged to the max, then its Erin Hills.  For me Lawsonia really grows on you and becomes more fun the more you play it.  I doubt that will true of Erin Hills.

So my vote out of 10 rounds is Lawsonia 8, Erin Hills 2, the Straits 0.  

BTW at Lawsonia they have an all day rate which varies depending on season (always less than a single round at EH or the Straits) and its easy to play 54 holes and take in the picturesque Joe Lee Woodlands course as well.  

[Mike McGuire]

Assuming the price of the green fee is not considered I would advise you to play Whistiling Straits. Its fun to play, the views of Lake Michigan are stunning, it has hosted a major, it will host the Ryder cup and because it was built from scratch it has a lot to consider from an architecture standpoint.

WS 6
L  3  (more if the geens stimp @9 or better)
EH 1 (needs a year(s) to mature)

[Eric_Terhorst]

Jon,

Dan Moore modestly neglected to tell you about his excellent review of EH here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=29760

[Brian Cenci]

If cost is not an option its WS-8, EH-2, L-0

-Brian

[Dan Moore]

Taking cost out of the equation I would certainly include The Straits.  How I'd allocate rounds then would depend on my impressions after playing it.  It certainly looked great on TV during the Senior Open and has some interesting holes.  What I really don't understand is why they have to charge 2x what Erin Hills charges.  

Brian,

Sounds like you may need to join us for the Langford Moreau tour.  Its only $250 for 4.5 rounds over 4 different Langford Moreau courses with a chance to hear from architects Dave Esler and Ron Forse and meet fellow GCA nuts.  

[TaylorA]

I'd play the Straits. In addition to it being an architectural feat, it's an engineering feat. The golf is excellent, the views are spectacular, it has major history behind and in front of it. There is a lot to learn from the course, despite the criticisms put forth here.

[PThomas]

I'd play the Straits. In addition to it being an architectural feat, it's an engineering feat. The golf is excellent, the views are spectacular, it has major history behind and in front of it. There is a lot to learn from the course, despite the criticisms put forth here.

i love Lawsonia too, but if it was only 1 round i'd pick WS...I echo Taylor's thoughts

[Jon Spaulding]

Thanks everyone for all the opinions; appears that WS is the general consensus. I think we'll pass on EH this time and narrow down to a tough one @ WS ....or a fun one @ Lawsonia. I've not seen any of L&M's work in person so that is tugging at me a little.

Drawing a lousy analogy to my home state, Lawsonia vs WS sounds a little like Rustic vs Pebble.

When I played WS in 2002, it was the toughest course I had played....and still is by a decent margin. The stretch from 2-4 and 14-17 into the wind was as close to impossible as I've experienced. In retrospect, I was "as pleased" with my day at WS as any day at Pebble.

[Ari Techner]

FWIW i played 2 rounds at Erin Hills in less than 4 hours each.  I have not played the other 2 so I cannot comment on them.  

[William King]

Conditioning may be better at Lawsonia, although the greens are a little slow for many.

Not if your ball is on the wrong side of the pin (read high). With the slope of their greens, more speed would make them almost unplayable.

 It is possible that you could have the course to yourself in the afternoon at Lawsonia.  I have before, and this is a really fun experience.  

As did I! It was fun, played 27 holes in a little over 3 hours w/o rushing whatsoever.

[Rob_Waldron]

I heard that in addition to hosting the 2008 Women's Publinx Erin Hills is being considered for the 2011 US AM and the 2017 US Open.

[Doug Siebert]

I found the greens at Lawsonia lacked that extra pop that a foot or foot and a half more stimp would give them, and I heard that a few years ago they used to be that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't slowed down for pace of play reasons, because many of the guys I was playing with had a hell of a time reading and putting them.  Maybe some of them were just not used to greens with that much contour.  I found them easy to read, and putted pretty well once I got used to hitting the ball harder than I thought I needed to, especially downhill.  As it was I saw many three putts, a few four putts and witnessed the first five putt I've seen in I don't know how long.  And it was after a GIR, too!

Despite the want of a bit of speed, those greens are definitely a lot of fun, and make you think hard about where you want your misses to be because you can leave yourself with some extremely awkward pitches and chips around the green if you end up in the wrong place.

One thing I couldn't help noticing about Lawsonia is that all its doglegs turn right, which made things difficult for me since they all turn well short of my carry distance so I have to cut way across them, and my misses tend to be pulls and hooks which puts me in the gunk -- often gunk that's blind from the tee which makes finding the ball a challenge.  So if you resemble this remark you might want to try what I'm going to try next time I play there -- irons off a lot of tees