[Mike_DeVries]

Hi All,

Check out this download
http://www.yousendit.com/download/elNMZXQ1bWd0TWswTVE9PQ
with photos from Crazy Grandpa Joe's golf course -- a course with 18" roots in the greens and 36" roots in the fairways -- that is a maintenance meld!!!!    I am sure Joe can provide more answers to you about it, but here is some background (via Joe) --

No rainfall events over 4/10th's of an inch since sometime back in mid May, and it was only twice that it rained. The last rain was on this past Saturday, the 14th. It was about 15/100th's of an inch.

We watered the greens this morning for about 15 minutes, otherwise they haven't had irrigation since Saturday's rainfall. No hand watering in that time period was done.

Yesterday, the 18th of July, was the first application of fungicide to the greens this year. I put out vinclozalin at 2.75#'s per acre, and I treat greens and collars, along with one pass in the approaches.

The fairways and roughs haven't been fertilized this year. Last year, the fairways received 3/4# of N and K, applied in one application. The year before that, they received the same amount as last year.

The greens have received less than 1/3# of N thus far this season.

Best,
Mike

[Adam Clayman]

Mike, Thanks for sharing.
 Grandpa Joe sure looks like he has some healthy turf.

Could you describe the soil's make-up? Is it typical Mi glacial silt? Sandy? Clay?

P.s. You may want to plan some sort of extended sebatical. You're next on my radar.  

[JESII]

Looks great Joe...thanks Mike.

[Josh Smith]

Grandpa,

       That looks natural and like it provides amazing playing conditions.  What more can I say.  Beautiful.  Well done.  What are you doing with all of the money you are saving?  Hmm. Hmm.

        PS.  Which is the signature hole?

Thanks Mike for the post.  

Josh
       

[Joe Hancock]

Thanks Mike.....

And, thanks to those that appreciate the effort....and it does require more than portrayed, but certainly less than if it was green wall to wall. This is what it looks like when a single row irrigation system is used sparingly. I personally find the tees, greens and fairways plenty green. The joy comes in watching those who either  are just learning, or are not very accomplished hit the ball and get plenty of distance out of their mishits. And, fat shots are a rarity...

The soil here is largely a silty loam for the top 18 inches, with sand and gravel underneath for 55 feet or more.....that is part of the reason why we can push our roots to the depths we have them...they have somewhere to go. It's interesting to dig a hole and find roots and earthworm channels 3 feet down.

Josh Smith,

You're the best painter I know, by far. But, even you couldn't polish this turd..... But, maybe I should buy a painting from you with all the money I'm saving...wait, the fuel truck just pulled up, never mind....

Maybe someone who downloaded the link knows how to save the pics and post them here, it might help the discussion. Thanks in advance....

Joe

EDIT: How the hell did I get so many names?....

EDIT: Pictures added...

Fairway#9



Fairway and Green #10



Approach and green #11



A look up #15, a 511 yard par 5



Wildflowers springing up in the currently unmowed rough



#6 Green, a 150 yard par 3



A close up of the greens texture...a lot of bentgrass for a 40 year old push up green



Greenside bunker on #12



A look back up the 14th fairway



The yellow tufts of grass is poa annua, not feeling so well on a green



There are more pictures at the photbucket link, but these should give you the idea.

Joe

[Steven_Biehl]

What are we supposed to be looking at?  The link says the download limit has been exceeded.  Any other way to post it.

[Peter Pallotta]

Let me add my congratulations, Joe. I think that's remarkable. I'd read before about how little water, fertilizer and fungicide you're using (and how little rain you've gotten there), and I wouldn't have imagined that the turf could look so healthy and 'strong'. There's none of the sparseness or patchiness I expected, and the greens seem just lovely. I think the old Brits would've described the turf as very 'golfy'. Even the browning of the rough looks good and healthy to me, sort of like fescue that's been cut down or something.
Anyway - I think that's great work you're doing there, for so many reasons.
Peter

[Steve Okula]

Joe,

I'm not able to access the photos either.

Last time you were on here about how brilliant you are, I asked what your fertilizer program was about, but got no answer.

I suppose you do have sensational roots. Congratulations. My members don't care a tinker's cuss about what roots there are.

What turf species are you managing? Where are you? What's the climate like there?

Do you use PGR's?

What speed are your greens on a regular basis?

Are you mowing daily? Do you use rollers? What is your topdressing program?

I would really like to learn more, but I get frustrated with people in this business who brag about terrific results and won't share their knowledge.

[JESII]

EDIT: How the hell did I get so many names?....

one of your children had a child...

[Jim Thompson]

BRAVO!!!!!!!

Hey Mike!  If I knew you were in town, I'd have bought the Ice Cream....

[Joe Hancock]

Joe,

I'm not able to access the photos either.

Last time you were on here about how brilliant you are, I asked what your fertilizer program was about, but got no answer.

I suppose you do have sensational roots. Congratulations. My members don't care a tinker's cuss about what roots there are.

What turf species are you managing? Where are you? What's the climate like there?

Do you use PGR's?

What speed are your greens on a regular basis?

Are you mowing daily? Do you use rollers? What is your topdressing program?

I would really like to learn more, but I get frustrated with people in this business who brag about terrific results and won't share their knowledge.

Steve,

I'm sorry if somehow I have come across as a know-it-all. I try to present a different methodology that I happen to believe in. If that doesn't work for you or your facility, please feel free to disregard any information I may present. For the record, please tell me if you believe what I have said in the past, on here or elsewhere, has caused any damage to any superintendent or golf course. If I have, I certainly will apologize in a most sincere way.

I'm in SW Michigan, near Grand Rapids. The climate here is a mixed bag, especially this year. We have had about 10 days over 90, and we have had some nice, low humidity days in the 70's as well. We typically are quite humid in the summer, but not like the SE part of the USA. This past winter, we had a spell where it didn't get above 8 degrees f for a week, with lows near 20 below f.

Our course is a hodgepodge of turfs....greens were origiannly seeded to Penncross bentgrass. Fairways have bent, poa, bluegrass, some fescue and ryegrass. I try to manage the fairways so they are firm and as dry as possible. This helps me keep disease pressure under control, as I can't afford very many fairway fungicide applications per year.

On Greens, I manage for bentgrass. I do that by keeping water to minimum, which I believe gives the bentgrass a competitive edge over poa annua. I use PGR's (Cutless and Primo, and different times of the year). I am a frequent verticutter, and try to keep doing it when it is hot and dry. I feel this helps eliminate the weaker strains of poa especially. I do one granular application of fertilizer on greens in the Spring, usually something like an 8-4-24 at 1/4#. Then I apply through the sprayer at 1/16# N or less, and I do that every 3 weeks or so. It really is by feel and observation more so than following a program or regime. We mow greens daily with a Toro triplex set at 130/1000 with swedge rollers. The greens usually stimp at 9 to 9.5, which is plenty fast for our clientele. I don't have rolling equipment for the greens, but a couple times per year we drag or rollers for fairway use across the greens. I topdress once per year (not ideal, I know), and that is in the Fall when I solid tine the greens.

Sorry to have frustrated you, and I apologize for my examples of my maintenance methods as coming across as bragging.

Joe

p.s If someone who has downloaded the photos knows how to get them here, it would be helpful. Thanks.

[Brett Hochstein]

I second Joe in requesting the pictures be posted, as I would like to see them, though they are probably not much different from what I saw firsthand last summer.

Joe, thanks for sharing your procedures in detail.  I knew the big idea, but I was unsure of the details.  I actually cited the situation at Grand Island a few times in my turf discussion class last semester, and people were rather fascinated.  Needless to say, when the week came for me to lead the discussion, my topic was "benefits of a minimal maintenance approach."

36" roots, that's crazy talk  

[Kalen Braley]

I second Joe in requesting the pictures be posted, as I would like to see them, though they are probably not much different from what I saw firsthand last summer.

Joe, thanks for sharing your procedures in detail.  I knew the big idea, but I was unsure of the details.  I actually cited the situation at Grand Island a few times in my turf discussion class last semester, and people were rather fascinated.  Needless to say, when the week came for me to lead the discussion, my topic was "benefits of a minimal maintenance approach."

36" roots, that's crazy talk  

You need to at least have the power point viewer to see these photos.  They are contained in a massive .ppt file.

I'd like to see some photographic evidence of these monsterous 36 inch grass roots...    

[Joe Hancock]

Kalen,

I wouldn't profess to having massive roots at 36".....

I am working on downloading the photos to photobucket, then I'll try to get them in here so I can really get beat up on.

Joe

[RJ_Daley]

...I'll try to get them in here so I can really get beat up on.

Oh yeah Joe, folks are just waiting in line to get a crack at you!  

[Joe Hancock]

http://s209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/jhancock42/

I hope this works, at least...tomorrow I'll get them to show in here....

These really are for discussion purposes. It's not a contest to see who has longest roots or greenest grass. It's about playing conditions and personal preferences. I am interested to know if this is acceptable, or is it a good idea taken too far in the good ol' USA.

Joe

[Eric Smith]

Last time you were on here about how brilliant you are, I asked what your fertilizer program was about, but got no answer...I get frustrated with people in this business who brag about terrific results and won't share their knowledge.

As I read it, Mike posted some thoughts on an exchange he had with Joe. Mike reported the information to us via this thread.  Where is Joe Hancock bragging and/or denying you his secret formula?

Plankton is forever seeking to steal the recipe to Mr. Krab's crabby patty. Plankton wants the formula for his own restaurant, The Chum Bucket. He got frustrated too.

[RJ_Daley]

I am interested to know if this is acceptable, or is it a good idea taken too far in the good ol' USA.

Well Joe, I think you know the answer... How many course operators would have the guts to try it?    

It is a big psychological barrier to break through in Duffy Lobwedge's preconceived mindset for course conditions expectations.  Duffy would think he is getting jipped for his green fee because it isn't green enough.  Duffy don't give a darn, nor understand the significance of deep roots on with browned out dormant leaf grasses.  He wants the turfed portion underwhich his ball rests to be nice and green and softish, and cut to a fairtheewell.  

But, I can just imagine the fun that would be produced if your same turf management program were applied to numerous courses I know of, where it would be wonderful due to the ground contouring, and routing aspects that just don't fully reach their potential because the ball is so dead once it lands.  

I guess the rubber meets the road if we would know how many acres of FW, roughs, tees, and green Sqft you are maintaining at what cost, compared to the ultra high maintenance course down the road.  If the ultra high maintenance course would cut back to your maintenance regime, how much do you think they 'could' drop their green fee?

Put another way, how much per per round on 25000 rounds of golf a year does your program cost, by comparison to the high ender?  You get $16.50-23 for 18 and the other high end place likely gets ~60-75, and how much of that is maintenance?....

[Steve Okula]

Joe,

Thank you for your reply. It helps me gain some insight into your program. I am always seeking to improve my craft.

I never suggested that you caused any harm to any superintendents. The supers I know and respect are happy to share any of their knowledge and experiences with anyone who asks. That's the best thing about this business. We have a fraternity of gentlemen who are willing to help each other, rather than cut each other throats, as is the norm in most other industries.

For the record, I haven't fertilized fairways this year, nor run irrigation on them for 12 weeks. I haven't bothered checking root depths.

Do you find any advantage in 36 inch roots, as opposed to, say, 12 inch roots?

[Joe Hancock]

Do you find any advantage in 36 inch roots, as opposed to, say, 12 inch roots?

Steve,

Without doing some sort of research to determine the benefits, and the extent of those benefits, there is no way I can answer this. I guess the only observation I can throw out there that MIGHT be related to the depth of the roots is this: as the current dry spell extended, I found that it was a lot longer into the season and the drought that I actually had to rely on irrigation to keep the grass somewhat green. It seemed like it was dry for three weeks before I felt the need to irrigate.

What are your observations and reasons for not fertilizing yet this year? Are you finding the turf requires less watering?

Thanks,

Joe

[Joe Hancock]

RJ,

Good questions. It's been an interesting process, and I think most of our customers know what to expect and what the philosophy is here. I tell everyone I can how much I enjoy watching the ball roll and tumble all over the course. The important thing to note here is that Grand Island was a very green, very irrigated course when we first bought it in 1997. Drying it up really and truly has been a 10 year process, with each year being able to push the envelope just a bit further.

As far as costs....all I can tell you is I spend approximately $170k each year to maintain the course, including my own salary and benefits as an owner.

The program really was initiated because of my preferences as a golfer. I had no idea what all the cost and agronomic ramifications were going to be when I first embarked on this. And, because I am not a natural born researcher, I have no real, quantifiable way to prove anything, other than observations and anecdotes.

Joe

[Ray Richard]

I had the experience as superintendent of a nine hole course with a minimal budget and after that at a high end 18 hole course. I can tell you its much more fun maintaining the low end course, it was a 7 day a week, hands on experience. The clientele at the low end course were just happy to be out playing golf, even if the fairways were non-irrigated and got fertilized every other year. The native fescues and bentgrasses predominated ( it was New England) and the playing surface was actually quite nice, although it was usually off color (dormant) in the summer. I always said "St Andrews in Scotland rarely fertilizes fairways so I want to be like them".

 I than moved up to the high end club and had to deal with enhanced nitrogen, members with outragous expectations, and a host of cultural problems caused by the fact that I had to water and feed the turf to excess to please the members. The mere mention of "off color turf" was a shock to the membership, who were fixated on watching Augusta National on widescreen TV's. So deep green was my job description.

 I still enjoy playing hard and fast golf courses, I like them tan colored and firm, as opposed to mushy, vibrant green courses that look and are artificial. I'll take courses like Cape Cod Country Club in Mass. and Cape Arundel in Maine any day.

So Joe, savor the experience at your fine course-it doesn't get any better than that.

[David Sneddon]

Joe,

Congratulations on your results.

Your course is exactly what a course should look and play.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Grandpa,
Nice work.
In addition to your patience and willingness to stick it out, I'd also say that your soil make up has a lot to do with the success of you program, no?
You'd have a very hard time doing the same thing with a heavier soil. Either way, very, very nice work...something only a very strong and entrenched supt or an owner like you could do. But, it's a nice model and now that you've shown what can be done, hopefully you'll have more inquires by like-minded supts.

Correct me if you find the following theory false, but I believe the hardest part about implementing this type of program would be the transition period from normal or intensive management to the lower input or minimalist approach. Those roots didn't dig to 30+ inches in one season. Things could get ugly if all involved don't realize that it's a five year deal, not a short, quick transition.

I still have an essay I wrote a few years back, hidden deep within my computer titled "A minimalist approach to maintenance". I never posted it because I didn't feel like I had enough quantitative facts; most of my thoughts were theory and from personal observation...not all that well documented. I'd like to work with you to produce something that may help others to see the benefits of your work and maybe help the next guy who follows your lead.

Biggest myth in the golf management world is that firm and fast costs more. I read it here all the time and I can't understand that sort of reasoning at all. However, I do completely understand that the higher the budget, the higher the supts salary. In today's golf environment, there's not a lot of incentive to follow a program like yours.

[TEPaul]

"I am interested to know if this is acceptable, or is it a good idea taken too far in the good ol' USA."

Somebody above asked this.

I don't think this is a good idea taken too far in the USA. To me this really does look like the ideal maintenance meld. The point to me isn't exactly what it looks like----the point is this kind of condition is what makes the golf ball bounce and roll and for that reason it's a condition that creates "complete golf" in a playability sense.

I do recognize there are a lot of people out there who don't agree with me on this but I think this is the kind of playable condition that should be strived for more on American golf courses.

We should only hope that this kind of condition and playablility gets a larger slice of the pie someday and not necessarily that it becomes what every golf course will do.

Don't forget the "Big World" theory which only means there should probably be something out their for everyone---for everyone's taste, so to speak.

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