[RJ_Daley]

If not a desired maintenance meld due to high expectations by modern players regarding the mind set that believes that the greener, the better; then perhaps a future reality of dwindling resources, more conservation of water, more desire to reduce chemical inputs would be the catalyst.  Just as the turf needs long term conditioning to transform to a hardier strain, golfers also need conditioning and weening off of what they are marketed and conditioned to believe represents the best playing surfaces for the game.

[Joe Hancock]

Don, Tom and RJ,

ALL of your points are valid and important.

Joe

[Doug Siebert]

Biggest myth in the golf management world is that firm and fast costs more. I read it here all the time and I can't understand that sort of reasoning at all. However, I do completely understand that the higher the budget, the higher the supts salary. In today's golf environment, there's not a lot of incentive to follow a program like yours.

Its too bad that a higher budget means a higher salary for the super, that's clearly inefficient.  Obviously if you have a large staff with lots of intensive hands on maintenance the super has more demanding job in terms of managing and training all those people and greater compensation would be required to hire and retain someone with those management skills in addition to the knowledge expected from every super.  But if it is simply because you spend lots of money on water, fertilizer and weed killer to make everything look ANGC perfect, its pretty stupid.

Thinking about it in a business context, when the CEO of a company like HP goes crazy on cost cutting, his compensation goes through the roof because Wall Street loves it when CEOs can find a way to spend less -- even if they go too far and make cuts that will hurt the company 3-5 years down the road, because Wall Street analysts rarely have the insight into the business necessary to see what is coming, plus many honestly don't care about anything beyond the next quarter or fiscal year.

I would think that a smart owner would want to reward a super that can do more with less, and if he could cut $100,000 off the maintenance budget while achieving as good or better conditions (finding a way to evaluate this that takes Mother Nature's foibles into account is left as an exercise for the reader ) he ought to be rewarded with a chunk of that savings.  After all, the course owner is benefitting through more profit and the super is taking a career risk by changing things instead of playing it safe and doing everything the same way its always been done at that course.

[Troy Alderson]

Joe.

What time of year do you fertilize the fairways, when you do?  Is it spring or fall?

At the golf course I used to manage, I applied 1-2#N on the fairways spring and fall.  I applied about 2#N on the greens in 1/2#N applications, 2-3 applications in the spring and 1-2 applications in the fall.  The golf course was high desert in central Oregon, very hot and very dry.  I applied about 1.5" water per week according to ET rates.  My program increased the bentgrass, K bluegrass, Rye, and fescue populations on the course.  The fescue popped up in the rough that did not recieve any fertilizer.  

Though the program was better than a typical golf course, I still feel the fertilizer and water rates were too high.  But I was reducing the amounts every year.

Troy

[Joe Hancock]

Troy,

You were doing what I did. I just kept reducing...and reducing...

The one fairway fertilizer application also included my Japanese Beetle grub insecticide(Merit), so I was going out in late June. I think that is an advantage to the healthier plants, by helping them choke out anything that is starting to stress from mid-summer heat.

Nice job......

Joe

[Craig Sweet]

Troy...we have a similer fert program here on our course in high and dry Montana....I have no idea what 1.5" of water per week translates into...we are pumping close to 700,000 gals.per night right now (23 days this month over 90 degrees...9 days over 100..no rain at all)....our fairways are firm and fast and have lots of color...the greens however are soft....I mentioned this to the superintendent the other day and he said, "yeah,the ballmarks are getting deeper...."   But he didn't dial back the run times....we have,every year,a serious problem with localized dry spot on several greens....and I think he catches hell for it every year...but I don't think increasing the run times is the answer....I would rather see us do more intensive handwatering, more timely applications of wetting agents,and perhaps some verticuting/spiking, or something other than two aerifications per season...

The thing is...we have roots that are nowhere near 30" deep....NOWHERE near that....and the trick is putting into place other maintinance practices that will, over time, get those roots deeper....it ain't all about water and fertilizer, right?

[Troy Alderson]

Craig,

No, it is not all about the water and fertilizer.  It is the timing of the water and fertilizer applications and as much aeration that is allowed.

If I may suggest some things.  Try out the PlanetAir aerator, it allows constant aeration of the soil throughout the growing season without surface disruption.  Use the PlanetAir every 2 weeks and mow after and the golfers will not know you did anything.  There are several other options with the PlanetAir for tees, fairways, and greens.  This machine is incredible and does everything it claims.  It is a perfect tool to keep the soil profile percolating water and exchanging CO2 and Oxygen.  Over time this machine will dry out the soil and create very healthy turf.

Your 700,000 gallons is about 1.5".  I based my irrigation scheduling according to the daily ET rates or crop water use by the turf.  When the turf used up 1/4" of water, I irrigated.  That was the amount of water I could put down on the whole golf course in one nightly cycle.  I was on the verge of trying out Don's deep and infrequent program when I left.

Deep and infrequent can mean different things.  In general, I define it as applying enough water to make it through more than one day.  Don talks about a 3 day cycle, my program was a 2 day cycle until the summer heat set in.  Then I would actually cut the water budget in half and irrigate daily or the clay would become mush.

Troy

[Craig Sweet]

Troy...thanks for the info and the IM...

When I have suggested to my boss that we think about another approach he gives me that look and says, "right now, I just want to keep the grass alive".

The greens are too wet, and air and water isn't moving through the root zone....on some greens you can smell the anaerobic death when you pull a hole plug...

Meanwhile, a small crew spends 4-5 hours everyday changing out or repairing  sprinkler heads in the fairways, and another small crew spends 1/2 the day mowing rough....

[Mike Nuzzo]

Joe,
How would a huge rainfall year effect your program.
Say you were to get 50+ inches by July....  

What if it were the first year of your transistional program?


I'm proud to call crazy grandpa joe a friend...

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,

There has been many times where rain foils the program, but the times that are available to dry it up are still important. I don't have any data on weather vs. conditions vs. disease, etc. for my golf course. One thing I can tell you, however, is that at this point of the program, the golf course definitely takes big rainfall events much better than it used to. That's not to say it does real well with chronic heavy rain, however. The only cure for that is sand....deep sand.

If heavy rains took place in the first year of a transitional period (assuming you mean from a "drying up" perspective), there likely would be no transitional period. Once again, your point reiterates the need for patience, and time.

Hope all is well, buddy....I have a wonderful Mexican restaurant waiting for you when you get up here...which will be when?....soon?.....

Joe

[Craig Sweet]

I just played my oourse this morning and it was wet...like a swamp....everyone was hitting some heavy shots....the greens...god, you could back the ball up so effortlessly....it was terrible....but the grass was alive and somewhat green...

[BCowan]

Thanks Mike.....

And, thanks to those that appreciate the effort....and it does require more than portrayed, but certainly less than if it was green wall to wall. This is what it looks like when a single row irrigation system is used sparingly. I personally find the tees, greens and fairways plenty green. The joy comes in watching those who either  are just learning, or are not very accomplished hit the ball and get plenty of distance out of their mishits. And, fat shots are a rarity...

The soil here is largely a silty loam for the top 18 inches, with sand and gravel underneath for 55 feet or more.....that is part of the reason why we can push our roots to the depths we have them...they have somewhere to go. It's interesting to dig a hole and find roots and earthworm channels 3 feet down.

Josh Smith,

You're the best painter I know, by far. But, even you couldn't polish this turd..... But, maybe I should buy a painting from you with all the money I'm saving...wait, the fuel truck just pulled up, never mind....

Maybe someone who downloaded the link knows how to save the pics and post them here, it might help the discussion. Thanks in advance....

Joe

EDIT: How the hell did I get so many names?....

EDIT: Pictures added...

Fairway#9



Fairway and Green #10



Approach and green #11



A look up #15, a 511 yard par 5



Wildflowers springing up in the currently unmowed rough



#6 Green, a 150 yard par 3



A close up of the greens texture...a lot of bentgrass for a 40 year old push up green



Greenside bunker on #12



A look back up the 14th fairway



The yellow tufts of grass is poa annua, not feeling so well on a green



There are more pictures at the photbucket link, but these should give you the idea.

Joe

Joe,

This is a great thread.  I liked how your approach to focusing on verticutting the greens and approaches in making the poa weaker.  Some very good food for thought and shifting your energies and focus from spending your time watering/cutting/apping.  Wood love to see the new grasses pushed to these limits.  We need a Grandpa Joe test lab....

[Joe Hancock]

Ben,


Those were the good ol' days.


I've always wondered if anyone in the industry or educational system wouldv'e taken notice of my efforts had I been at a well regarded ODG course.


I also noticed reading through that thread that I used to share more willingly on here, but have become less so as I've hung around longer. Either I feel I have less to say, or I wised up and realized no one was really very interested. Also, not being an active superintendent tends to take away credibility.....


Thanks for finding the thread though. I enjoyed being able to contribute something, even if only a few found it meaningful.

[BCowan]

Joe,

      I just wish that we could get the discussion going without pissing others off in modern day Turf Academia.  I have no problem with Keepers making good money.  I'd like to see more talk on here in regards to priorities of presentation.  How that relates to average public and private golfer.     

    I think we need a Turvf Ranch (spin off the fur ranch) at Grandpa Joe's place, hopefully Trix wouldn't mind     I think more would take notice if people of similar beliefs as yours offered some small case studies.  I wish more Mechanical/Cultural practices could be considered instead of the latest App.  However I believe in Science and think great achievements have been made with seed varieties.

    I've noticed that some older posters used to share more info, I wish we could get back to those days.  I do wish we had more public course keepers on here.  I think possibly that it is natural to lose the child's like sense of enthusiasm the longer you are on something.   

   

[jeffwarne]

Ben,


Those were the good ol' days.


I've always wondered if anyone in the industry or educational system wouldv'e taken notice of my efforts had I been at a well regarded ODG course.


I also noticed reading through that thread that I used to share more willingly on here, but have become less so as I've hung around longer. Either I feel I have less to say, or I wised up and realized no one was really very interested. Also, not being an active superintendent tends to take away credibility.....


Thanks for finding the thread though. I enjoyed being able to contribute something, even if only a few found it meaningful.

+1

[Steve Lang]

   Hey Joe,


.. on sharing like you used to... could be you're going on 10 years older since that thread!


are you still playing that Titleist 975-D?


Happy New Year from Steve & Sheila!

[Joe Hancock]

Steve,


The Titiest 975-J....affirmative! That, a few irons and a putter makes for the perfect carry setup for me. Having as much fun as ever, especially since I don't mind the occasional double bogey(or worse).


Hope all is well with you and Sheila...hope it's much warmer there than here!

[MCirba]

Nice stuff here.


Thanks for digging it up Ben. 

[Joe Hancock]

Ben,


Here's the thing; The case study on an entire golf course wasn't enough to change anyone's mind, so how is a home lawn plot going to get anything but a chuckle? Give me a great old track and a decade and I'll do it again, but the yard idea is silly.


Until a few of the uppity-ups do something this radical, not much will change. In fact, I've been hearing for decades that water availability will be the next big thing....it's sold a lot of new pump stations and a LOT more heads and valves in the name of efficiency, but I have yet to see any real change in the presentation of the golf courses I see...in fact, they're more highly maintained than they ever have been (lower mowing heights don't generally equate to less water requirements). A few golf nerds here and there aren't affecting th industry. But, I'm sure we rankle a few folks, and likely entertain a few others with our romantic notions of what golf could be(again).

[MCirba]

Joe,


A lot of forces of history are on your side.


If golf doesnt become more fun and sustainable there will be much less future golf. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Ben,


Those were the good ol' days.


I've always wondered if anyone in the industry or educational system wouldv'e taken notice of my efforts had I been at a well regarded ODG course.


I also noticed reading through that thread that I used to share more willingly on here, but have become less so as I've hung around longer. Either I feel I have less to say, or I wised up and realized no one was really very interested. Also, not being an active superintendent tends to take away credibility.....


Thanks for finding the thread though. I enjoyed being able to contribute something, even if only a few found it meaningful.

+1

Another +1 I miss the opportunity to read and learn about things I know nothing about ,versus even my own writings of  opinionated blah😉

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Ben,


Here's the thing; The case study on an entire golf course wasn't enough to change anyone's mind, so how is a home lawn plot going to get anything but a chuckle? Give me a great old track and a decade and I'll do it again, but the yard idea is silly.


Until a few of the uppity-ups do something this radical, not much will change. In fact, I've been hearing for decades that water availability will be the next big thing....it's sold a lot of new pump stations and a LOT more heads and valves in the name of efficiency, but I have yet to see any real change in the presentation of the golf courses I see...in fact, they're more highly maintained than they ever have been (lower mowing heights don't generally equate to less water requirements). A few golf nerds here and there aren't affecting th industry. But, I'm sure we rankle a few folks, and likely entertain a few others with our romantic notions of what golf could be(again).

You are of course 100 % correct, I am still trying to convince the greens" committee of my own course here in Arkansas that mud balls in the fairways at the height of the summer is not considered optimal!!!!!!!

[jeffwarne]

it's sold a lot of new pump stations and a LOT more heads and valves in the name of efficiency, but I have yet to see any real change in the presentation of the golf courses I see...in fact, they're more highly maintained than they ever have been (lower mowing heights don't generally equate to less water requirements). A few golf nerds here and there aren't affecting th industry. But, I'm sure we rankle a few folks, and likely entertain a few others with our romantic notions of what golf could be(again).

It's so cool and hip to say "firm and fast"
but mostly I just see fast....once rolling.......but that first bounce counts too
As you state we now often get fast at the expense of firm
Would love to see more "firm" in the equation.

[BCowan]

Joe,


A lot of forces of history are on your side.


If golf doesnt become more fun and sustainable there will be much less future golf.

Mike,

   I told Joe he is lucky we hadn't played it for we would of brought chain saws and cut all the Christmas Trees down.  They block all the nice views of the brown rough 

[JMEvensky]

You are of course 100 % correct, I am still trying to convince the greens" committee of my own course here in Arkansas that mud balls in the fairways at the height of the summer is not considered optimal!!!!!!!

That's what you get for living in Arkansas.


FYI--RJ caught a giant break. He's now Head Pro at Colonial.

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