Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?

[Jordan Wall]

The 18th at Carnoustie yesterday played at a stroke average of 4.71.  At one point the average was 5.1 strokes.

With par irrelevant, this seems a hole that brings out the best and worst in players.

Players who struggle would happily take a 5 with a realistic chance of making a 6.
Players who are playing well have to hit two great shots to get on the green and have a chance at 3 or 4, yet a 5 is not always dissapointing.

Obviously, Jean Van de Velde found torture there on the last hole in 99', as did Justin Leonard.  Yet, in the playoff, the hole was birdied by Paul Lawrie.

Coming down the stratch, this could possibly be the hardest and most testing hole in golf.  If the leader came to the last hole anything could be possible come Sunday.  Yet, if there are players one, two, or three back they can make a good score on the hole and put the pressure on the leaders.  

There is ob left the hole way, with the burn having a great affect on shots.

Each shot the player hits must be well played and well thought out.

The hole is possibly one of the greatest test for pro golfers, forcing precision throughout and forcing the player to have steel nerves come Sunday.

All this seems to make Carnoustie's 18th possibly the best finishing hole in Championship golf.  What do you guys think?

[G Jones]

Also, it's nice that it is practically intertwined with the 17th fairway... makes for some good stolen glances at competitors at the end of the final round as they pass each other :-)

[redanman]

I was having dinner with  two regulars on here last night and was
discussing finishing holes.  I guess in the end it comes down to
what you want a finishing hole to be.

Do you want to give an edge to:

length
straight
length and straight combined
two or three shotter and/or reachable?
Hard
Fair

Perhaps clever.  

I for one don't like particularly penal holes, really long
holes (giving an edge to long hitters) and definitely NOT
par 5 holes.

Carnoustie is completely different in different winds. That
is definitely in its favor.  We'll find no consensus best, but Carnoustie's
17-18 is a wonderful pair.  A shame they probably
won't see a strong wind out of the east this Open, now that
really makes 17-18 different!

[Phil McDade]

Jordan:

Good topic; I was thinking of a thread: best 18th hole, Oakmont or Carnoustie? They each seem to put a lot of pressure on both the tee and approach shot, with a real risk/reward scenario if the tee shot doesn't catch the fairway (Oakmont's fronting bunker, Carnoustie's burn). Cabrera essentially won the US Open by parring 18 at Oakmont; it's going to be a tough hole if a leader on Sunday gets there with a one-stroke lead. Still haven't made up my mind which I like better -- Oakmont may be the more attractive hole, Carnoustie perhaps a bit tougher. But open to suggestions otherwise:)

[Jordan Wall]

Phil,

Interesting, but I agree that both are great finishing hole.
Perhaps the 18th at Carnoustie is more demanding.
Whether or not that makes it a better finishing hole, I'm not sure.
It sure puts a lot of pressure on the players though!

Both are great finishing holes!

[Matt_Cohn]

The best? No. Too many guys bailing into the bunker and bleachers.

I'd prefer it with the OB somewhat further left of the green. But the burn and rough certainly put a premium on accurate driving.

[Michael Dugger]

Winged Foot's 18th kicked many asses last year, too.

We must be careful not to always annoint the flavor of the month "best" status.  Just because it is fresh in our minds does not make it best.

[Kyle Harris]

I'd prefer if the fairway were cut down the left side to the OB... giving the tournament golfer an option to challenge the OB on the tee shot and get an angle coming in AWAY from the OB that swallowed Vijay's ball during the 2nd round. There's just no way to "fight" for the angle off the tee and the player is somewhat handcuffed.

Is this a great finish? Not too sure on that... I think Monty's situation today indicated that as he was at +5 on the 16th, and at the time needed to make up a shot to make the cut (he ultimately did when the cut dropped to +5) but when the last true opportunity comes on the 15th or the 16th on a good day.

I'd like to know that a golfer could PERFECTLY execute two aggressive shots and have a reasonable putt for a 3 on a finishing hole... but I don't think the 18th at Carnoustie lets the golfer do that, yet.

[Garland Bayley]

The best finishing hole. #18 Pebble Beach. It makes far more lists of best 18 holes than the 18th at either Carnoustie or Oakmont. It is played in championship golf.

Simply reading your subject line should lead you there instead of Carnoustie or Oakmont. As Michael Dugger says, it has to be the best year in and year out, not just the weekend of the championship.
 

[Jordan Wall]

Winged Foot's 18th kicked many asses last year, too.

We must be careful not to always annoint the flavor of the month "best" status.  Just because it is fresh in our minds does not make it best.

Michael,

I think Carnoustie's finisher is stronger than Winged Foot.

At Carnoustie, each shot has to be well thought out.  Even when a drive is in the fairway, often the ball is well over 200 yards out (even Sergio had 203 yards in today!) and then the burn comes into play on the second shot.  I think the 18th at Carnoustie is a lot more demanding than Winged Foot's.  With OB, the burn, plus bunkers the hole is a beast.  Just because Winged Foot's 18th had a massacre occur, let us not forget so did Carnoustie's.

If you feel Winged Foot has a better finishing hole, I would love to hear why.


Kyle,

There have been birdies on the last at Carnoustie.  Its a very demanding hole, yes, but what else would suit the best players in the world?  Birdies are a definite possibility, and while they are a mere possibility, they still can happen.  I wouldn't necesarrily say the last true oppurtunity for a good score is on 15 or 16 either.  

15 is 472 yards, par-4.
16 is 256 yards, par-3.

I think the finishing holes are great in that the player who plays them well will be rewarded with a good score and those who sturggle will pay.  Sometimes a good score doesn't have to be under par.  After all, it is a major championship.


Garland,

Why does Pebble have the best finishing hole in Championship golf?
When was the last time a major came down to the last hole at Pebble and something thrilling happened?
I would say it is a lovely looking hole, one that I would love to see in person, but what makes it better than Carnoustie's finishing hole?  Just because Pebble's finisher is arguably the most iconic hole in golf does not make it the best finishing hole in Championship golf, in my opinion.

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

I consider a champion golfer to be one who is in command of his golf swing, and can therefore make something happens when he needs to. A championship golf hole provides the opportunity for precise execution to provide a reasonable shot at a 3.

In its present configuration, I think the 18th at Carnoustie yeilds 3s more as a function of luck than execution.

At one point during coverage today, the 18th stats read somethign like this:

3: 2
4: 46
5: 47

Yes, a 500 yard hole with Barry Burn and OB hard left will be a challenge, but with the rough cut in on the tee shot, the player is already handcuffed for one line into the green - not really presented with options for an angle of attack.

Garland's point about the 18th at Pebble is a great one, IMO. While I don't hold Pebble in very high regard compared to its colleagues on *insert top 100 list here* it is hard for me to argue against the effectiveness in the finish.

[wsmorrison]

Consider:

Merion East
Pine Valley
Shinnecock Hills
Kittansett
NGLA
Rolling Green (but not from the stupid back par 5 tees)
Cherry Hills

[Garland Bayley]

...
Why does Pebble have the best finishing hole in Championship golf?
When was the last time a major came down to the last hole at Pebble and something thrilling happened?
...

When was the last time a major came down to the last hole at Carnoustie or Oakmont and something thrilling happened?

Carnoustie has the distinction of having something disgusting happen. By the way you phrase things, that makes it the worst finishing hole in championship golf.

Perhaps I will answer your question if you find some justification for it, in particular with your nomination of Carnoustie.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan,

I find it a uniquely interesting hole.

I'd certainly prefer it without the nearby bleachers and OB left.

If offers a variety of dilemas on the drive, second and recovery shots.  It demands length and accuracy and nerves of steel.  I like the natural aspects of the hole including the meandering burn.

At almost all of these events, with the exception of The Masters, it wouldn't surprise me if the outcome is inequitably decided by a deflected shot or relief/a drop from stands/tents/structures.

Neither WFW or Oakmont presents the dire carry nature of the second shot at Carnoustie or the threat of a meandering creek, and while there's OB right at Oakmont, it's fairly far removed from play.

I like all of the holes, but, Carnoustie gets my nod.

[Garland Bayley]

http://www.golflink.com/golf-course-awards/best-golf-courses.asp?id=1323

[Jordan Wall]

...
Why does Pebble have the best finishing hole in Championship golf?
When was the last time a major came down to the last hole at Pebble and something thrilling happened?
...

When was the last time a major came down to the last hole at Carnoustie or Oakmont and something thrilling happened?

Last time the Open was at Carnoustie Jean Van de Velde made his infamous 7.  A month ago Tiger hit an eight iron to 20 feet at Oakmont while all of America sat on their seats to see if he could be a hero, again.  Though it didn't happen, that was certainly thrilling.  I doubt think there is any doubt about Van de Velde.

Carnoustie has the distinction of having something disgusting happen. By the way you phrase things, that makes it the worst finishing hole in championship golf.

How do I phrase things?
As far as I am concerned, Carnoustie offers a great and exciting finishing hole because any score from 3 to 7 is possible, no?  Plus all the options and routes to play the hole.  With ob, the burn, and huge bunkers, it really makes even the best players in the game think of how to play it.  Thats great by my definition.

Perhaps I will answer your question if you find some justification for it, in particular with your nomination of Carnoustie.

Sure.

Consider these reasons:

- As proven, any score from a 3 to 7 is possible and realistic.
- There are many routes to play the hole.  
- The hole rewards great shots.
- The hole penalizes bad shots
- The hole offers interesting recovery options, ranging from playing the ball from a burn to playing the ball from long grass, to playing out of deep bunkers.  Or, quite simply, playing a ticklish pitch from the fairway short or right of the hole.

Kyle,

Considering, in relation to par, the hole plays more like a par-5 anyways, I think 3's should only be rewarded with great shots.  Considering there are only two 3's recorded so far on the hole today, this means the hole is defending itself well, yet proving that a great shot can end up with a 3.  Yet, poor shots can end up with a 5.  Its a major championship, and it does not surprise me that there are a lot of 5's.  It just proves the hole provides a great test.

As far as precise execution, these are the best players in the world, so precision for their golf shots is a lot different than for the average player.  If someone plays the hole with immense precision, hitting good shots, then a 3 is surely possible.  I disagree about the angle of attack to the hole too.  The closer the drive is to the rough on the left, the better the angle, no?

And, I dont doubt the effectiveness of Pebble's finish, I just question it as being the best finishing hole in all of Championship golf.


Wayne,

Those are probably all great finishing holes, but I mean to talk about finishing holes in relation to major championships.  Aside from Merion, I dont think any of those courses have held a major.  Nonetheless, who can forget Hogan's 1-iron to a foot at Merion?  An infamous shot!

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

The hole just isn't wide enough left, IMO.



There's a perfectly good burn to cut the fairway towards and challenge in order to give the player an option on his angle of approach to the green. Instead, the golfer has his hands tied to approach the green from one angle. Execution is required, but little in the way of strategy. Based on that picture, I'd widen the fairway near the tee out to the burn until it hits the OB.

I've never been there nor have I played the hole, but play today seemed to show that balls hit left would funnel OB on the approach to the green. While I don't have a problem with that possibility, I have a problem with players' hands being tied from the tee to that angle.

I purposely didn't mention par, by the way, and the fact that the hole has a lot of 5s doesn't prove it's a great test, it proves the hole is hard. The majority of the 5s are being made by layups not penalties for biting off more than the golfer can chew.

Here's what I'm talking about:

[Jordan Wall]

Kyle,

I see and understand what you mean, but it is still true that anything in the left side of the fairway provides the best angle, easily.

And, if the player bites off more than they can chew, it is their fault, no?
In that case it is a poor tee shot making the player lay-up.
As I said, the hole penalizes bad shots, and cutting off too much is not only bad but it is simply a bad decision made by the player.  A bad decision and/or a bad shot should result in a high number, in my opinion.

[Tim Bert]

For my TV entertainment, Carnoustie #18 is pretty good if the leader is in the final group and everyone else is in the clubhouse.  If the leader is already in the clubhouse, then I'll take TOC #18 as the finish for my viewing enjoyment.

It comes down to whether the situation calls for a birdie or a bogey to make the finish interesting.  

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I see and understand what you mean, but it is still true that anything in the left side of the fairway provides the best angle, easily.

And, if the player bites off more than they can chew, it is their fault, no?
In that case it is a poor tee shot making the player lay-up.
As I said, the hole penalizes bad shots, and cutting off too much is not only bad but it is simply a bad decision made by the player.  A bad decision and/or a bad shot should result in a high number, in my opinion.

Jordan,

Reread what I wrote. My argument is that what the hole considers to be a bad shot is only based in execution and not strategy.

I don't see many decisions with the present configuration off the tee. Do you? I'm guessing that the hole is no wider than 25 yards and gets narrower up toward the bunkers, not exactly room for thought, even for the PGA Tour.

[Mike Benham]

This view doesn't help the argument ...

[Kalen Braley]

I'm going with Kyle on this one.

From what I've seen on TV and the aerials, there very much seems to be only one play off the tee...hit it straight. Having the ability to hit it longer is a plus but not exactly a strategic options.  18 is an appropriate penal finishing hole on a very penal golf course.

I've always liked to see par 5s as finishers, because then there really is lots of options in terms of making a 3 or a 7.  Pebble is a great finisher especially now with the increased players length as they can get home in 2.

And for the record in the AT&T a few years back it did have a memorable finish when PM sliced one into the ocean as he went for the green in 2 in hopes of winning the toon-a-mint.

[Phil McDade]

Great (meaning, tournament-changing) things did happen on the 18th at Carnoustie, and not all of it was done by Van de Velde. Lawrie birdied the hole in regulation to finish off his great clutch round of 67. He birdied it again in the playoff. The short-hitting Leonard, thinking he needed birdie on the 18th in regulation to even remotely smell a playoff, put his 2nd shot in the drink and ended up bogeying (a layup and simple up-and-down for par -- easier for a great wedge player like Leonard than him trying to carry the burn -- would've won the tourney). Van de Velde's strategy in messing up the last hole was partly a result of the hole's design.

Watson knew he had the tournament won in '82 at Pebble with his chip-in at 17. For someone like him, PB's 18 with a one-stroke lead is not that challenging a hole -- far less than the challenge faced by Cabrera at Oakmont's 18 (very hard tee shot, tough approach, crazy green), or what a leader will face at Carnoustie with a one-shot lead on 18.

[Bob_Huntley]

This view doesn't help the argument ...

Mike,

Scottish architecture went into the tank after John Adam, the structure shown proves it.

Bob

[mike_beene]

Unfortunately the California apartment look is an improvement.Jordan,has a young person like you ever seen the ugly building that used to be there?