The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I am serious but can not currently access my IM's because I am posting from my phone.  Call me at 618-928-xxxx and we can set it up.  I will be playing either way so no worries about imposters or prank calls.

Number changed because call was made and last time I posted my number on this site I got hundreds of unwanted text messages for buying stocks.

[Paul_Turner]

The British system was set up long before golf tourism took off.  If you're a golf course enthusiast it's the better system, by far.

[ed_getka]

Tom,

My idea of a great semi-private club in the US that fits the UK model is Prarie Dunes.  I don't think you guys can hold a candle in the semi-private arena.

Here we have an example of an outlandish remark by John.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mr Kavanaugh is clearly comfortable with the system in the US of A and most of us Brits seem very comfortable with our system.

Tom as a member at Sunningdale has access to one of the world's finest pair of courses. They allow visitors and societies Monday-Thursday but Friday-Sunday is members and guests only. I guess 90% of the membership are never affected by visitors as they play at different times. He's also quite right 90% of UK members courses could be described as semi-private.

Sean - I found the R&A clubhouse very welcoming and full of ambience and history!

[Mike Sweeney]

A few years ago Victoria National did allow unaccompanied play at $250 per person plus mandatory forecaddies.  The revenue soon proved to not be worth the expense.  We have instead been selling affordable national memberships which are very good for all parties involved.

National memberships are the true value in American private golf.  They only become worthless when anyone can call and play at any time.

John,

You need to embrace the fact that you are a member at the King of All Hit and Run Courses.   If you think my wife from Connecticut is going to support trading in the National Membership on Cape Cod for one in Southern Indiana so she and the kids can go to the strawberry festival while I go play with my new golf buddies from the Midwest, you are nuts. Why would it not be cool to set up a system where appreciative golfers from all over come to your neck of the woods for a weekday when things are quiet. You just invited someone to your club blind with some sort of Jaka screening process, why not set one up at the club?

[Andrew Mitchell]

The British system was set up long before golf tourism took off.  If you're a golf course enthusiast it's the better system, by far.

On Saturday the Independent published a list of the 50 best courses in the British Isles (sorry but I can't find an online version).  Totting them up I've played 18 of them, most in the last two or three years.  On none of them have I had to rely on or seek an invitation from a member. Of the ones I haven't played yet only Loch Lomond would appear difficult to access (although I am acquainted with two members), and perhaps Swinley Forest.

If a similar list was compiled in the US I doubt I would be able to access 48 courses in a similar manner.

[John Kavanaugh]

A few years ago Victoria National did allow unaccompanied play at $250 per person plus mandatory forecaddies.  The revenue soon proved to not be worth the expense.  We have instead been selling affordable national memberships which are very good for all parties involved.

National memberships are the true value in American private golf.  They only become worthless when anyone can call and play at any time.

John,

You need to embrace the fact that you are a member at the King of All Hit and Run Courses.   If you think my wife from Connecticut is going to support trading in the National Membership on Cape Cod for one in Southern Indiana so she and the kids can go to the strawberry festival while I go play with my new golf buddies from the Midwest, you are nuts. Why would it not be cool to set up a system where appreciative golfers from all over come to your neck of the woods for a weekday when things are quiet. You just invited someone to your club blind with some sort of Jaka screening process, why not set one up at the club?

That is what we have with the small glitch that every member is a captain.  Anybody in the world can apply to any one of us and if we choose to let them play we simply either show up ourselves or find another member to join them.  My real name and email address is here for all golfers to see...I don't see a problem.

[Tom Birkert]

The British system was set up long before golf tourism took off.  If you're a golf course enthusiast it's the better system, by far.

On Saturday the Independent published a list of the 50 best courses in the British Isles (sorry but I can't find an online version).  Totting them up I've played 18 of them, most in the last two or three years.  On none of them have I had to rely on or seek an invitation from a member. Of the ones I haven't played yet only Loch Lomond would appear difficult to access (although I am acquainted with two members), and perhaps Swinley Forest.

If a similar list was compiled in the US I doubt I would be able to access 48 courses in a similar manner.

I'd have liked to have seen that list, if anyone can point me towards it online I'd appreciate it. I'm sure I'd end up disagreeing with it though  

[Andrew Mitchell]

Tom
I've had another search of the Indy website but still can't find any trace of it.

I'll try and find time today or tomorrow to post the list in its entirety.

[Patrick Glynn]

"You have chosen to criticise, fairly robustly, a system you admittedly have no personal knowledge of"

Couldnt say it better than that. Ignorance is bliss.

I have had countless invitations to play a lot of the elite/private courses on both sides of the Pond. I 100% agree with John Mayhugh - yes it is possible to get invites to play these places, but I would feel dirty/seedy having basically used a person just to benefit myself. Networking/back scratching, call it what you want, I have experience with both systems and the GB & I one is much better IMHO.

Compare two areas;

SW Ireland:       Monterey:

Lahinch             Pebble Beach
Ballybunion        Cypress Point
Waterville          Olympic Lake
Killarney            Pasatiempo

You can get out one any of the Irish courses for a fee equivalent to the cheapest Monterey course (Pasatiempo)
You dont have to deal with 6 hours $400 rounds like at Pebble
There is not a chance in hell a "regular" person can get out at Cypress or Olympic.
Membership for locals at Lahinch/Ballybunion is dirt cheap in comparison to the Cypress/Olympic.

[George Pazin]

Patrick -

I agree with pretty much everything you just said, but the harsh reality is just that, if the US equivalents of Lahinch, Ballybunion, Waterville and Killarney were to offer the same type of access as those 4, the members would struggle to find a tee time any and every day, and definitely couldn't get around in any kind of reasonable time basis. There's just too much demand here.

I think Wayne got it right - each system accomplishes its goals.

[Mark Pearce]

Patrick -

I agree with pretty much everything you just said, but the harsh reality is just that, if the US equivalents of Lahinch, Ballybunion, Waterville and Killarney were to offer the same type of access as those 4, the members would struggle to find a tee time any and every day, and definitely couldn't get around in any kind of reasonable time basis. There's just too much demand here.


I think Wayne got it right - each system accomplishes its goals.

George,

Do you honestly think that the same wouldn't be true at, say, Muirfield if visitor numbers weren't restricted?  All UK&I private clubs restrict visitor numbers as several people have described above.  This normally takes the form of restricting times and days when visitors can play.  

Mark

[Mark Pearce]

Patrick -

I agree with pretty much everything you just said, but the harsh reality is just that, if the US equivalents of Lahinch, Ballybunion, Waterville and Killarney were to offer the same type of access as those 4, the members would struggle to find a tee time any and every day, and definitely couldn't get around in any kind of reasonable time basis. There's just too much demand here.

I think Wayne got it right - each system accomplishes its goals.

George,

If visitor access was unrestricted the same would be true at all the great British courses.  Do you honestly think that there isn't enough demand to fill Muirfield every day?  Private courses over here limit visitor numbers to ensure members can play.  This is normally done by restricting when visitors can play (only on Tuesdays and Thursdays at Muirfield, for instance).

Mark

[Patrick Glynn]

Just to clarify, Lahinch is a members course but it is by no means private. Basically anyone can play it, they just need to call ahead of time. The membership are never unable to play due to Visitors. The timesheet works like this - Members Time is 08.30 to 10.30 and again from 13.30 to 14.30. Visitors can NOT play during these times, and in Ireland - 09.00 is pretty much the ideal tee time. However, because Lahinch is such a small village and people have to work during the week (not everyone lives a life of idle luxury) if Members Time is empty, and 2 Americans turn up and ask can they play, the starter will slot them in.

You are right though George, the Irish system might not work as easily in the US. What I find interesting is that as a member of an "Elite" club, I can pretty much play Cypress, Crystal Downs, Valley Club, Melbourne and a few others with just a phone call from our Pro / GM. Yet I dont think it fair, and I would much prefer the game to be open to anyone/everyone, not just the privileged few.

[Michael Moore]

You can get out one any of the Irish courses for a fee equivalent to the cheapest Monterey course (Pasatiempo)

Today's fee at Waterville is 336.69 US dollars.

[John Mayhugh]

Right now, feel like I'm the luckiest golfer.  

I was fortunate enough to play 36 holes yesterday at Victoria National.  John Kavanaugh was wonderful enough to host me and put up with all the wild tee shots I produced.

VN is a beautiful course and definitely one of a kind.  I just couldn't get past the visual intimidation off the tee and ended up trying to steer all my shots.  This was likely the toughest course that I've ever played.  I think I would have more success at the Ocean Course on a windy day.  

My game is not up to playing a course like that, but the opportunity was tremendous fun.

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