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Jack_Marr

Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« on: July 17, 2007, 06:20:47 AM »
I've been looking through "Where Golf is Great..." and there really seems to be quite a big difference between Irish and Scottish links.

There seems to be more pot bunkers and burns and less large dunes on the Scottish courses. Maybe they seem more subtile than Irish links.

Are there just more large dunes in Ireland, or do the Scots just not develop their more undulating duneland into golf courses.

Anyway, there are obviously exceptions.

I'd love to play some of the Scottish links I've seen. To me it looks like almost a different game.
John Marr(inan)

Ally Mcintosh

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2007, 06:35:22 AM »
hi john, how've you been?...

...whereas i should be in the ideal situation to answer this question, i think i will again bow to the knowledge of others and see what they come back with first...

...although one think i'd immediately say is that almost all scottish links (up until kingsbarns) were built over 100 years ago... it's surprising the amount of irish links that were built in the 1970's or thereabaouts... this in itself would bring about many differences i would imagine...

Patrick Glynn

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2007, 08:08:51 AM »
Ally, I dont know about that. There are a few "modern" Irish links for sure, but the Top 5 courses in Ireland are generally accepted to be:

Royal County Down - 1889
Royal Portrush - 1888
Ballybunion - 1893
Lahinch - 1892
Portmarnock - 1894

Nothing too modern about that list!

Irish links tend to have more dunes, and Scottish are flatter, and have less dramatic elevation changes. I think it quite interesting that when Tom Morris laid out Lahinch in the 1890s, some of the holes were on the other side of the road, where the Castle Course now sits. Much tamer land, with little if any changes in elevation/dunes. It wasnt until MacKenzie came in the 1920s and rerouted the course that we opened up holes 7 - 12. And of course Tom Morris is a Scot so it seems to back up your assertion.

Hopefully others with more in depth knowledge can chime in.

Ally Mcintosh

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2007, 08:38:39 AM »
yes, i guess i realised the ridiculousness of my post as soon as i typed it...

...that said, it's partially valid... some of the most dramatic dunes in ireland occur in more modern courses such as ballyliffin, carne, enniscrone, the european, ballybunion cashen... other new courses include rosapenna, murvagh, connemara, waterville... there's a lot of them...

...in scotland, you are looking at kingsbarns and you could argue turnberry as being post-war...

jack, i don't know the answers... the use of burns / streams is particularly prevalent in scottish links golf as you said... whether that's purely to do with different land formations in the two countries i've no idea... i wonder if planning regulations have had anything to do with the differences as well?...

Jack_Marr

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2007, 08:56:10 AM »
hi john, how've you been?...

...whereas i should be in the ideal situation to answer this question, i think i will again bow to the knowledge of others and see what they come back with first...

...although one think i'd immediately say is that almost all scottish links (up until kingsbarns) were built over 100 years ago... it's surprising the amount of irish links that were built in the 1970's or thereabaouts... this in itself would bring about many differences i would imagine...


Hi Ally

I'm fine thanks. Just back from a hernia operation, but played golf yesterday with mixed results.

I also noticed of the different courses that there will be a small stream in a ditch over here, whereas i scotland, the burn is very well defined, often with straight sides and deeper. Wooden support to keep things neat. I think these features look fantastic - it means you're either in the water, or you're not

John
John Marr(inan)

David_Tepper

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2007, 09:24:45 AM »
My theory (best guess) to account for why the dunes & terrain on Irish courses are more dramatic than those on Scottish courses would be as follows:

1) Most of the bigger dunes courses in Ireland (Ballybunion, Enniscrone, Carne, Lahinch, Rosses Point, etc.) are built on its west coast, facing the Atlantic Ocean. At Portmarnock or Royal Dublin, on the east coast, the dunes are not very large.
 
2) The majority of links courses in Scotland are on its east coast, facing the North Sea. Rather than sitting directly on the North Sea, many of the links courses on Scotland's east coast sit on firths that offer addtional protection from the elements.  

3) I would presume (another guess) that the weather conditions (wind, ocean waves & tides, etc.) off the Atlantic Ocean are far more extreme than those off the North Sea. These more extreme weather conditions might have created larger dunes on that coastline.

Other than along the Ayrshire coastline (which does not directly face the Atlantic Ocean), there are surpisingly few links courses on the west coast of Scotland.

Cruden Bay is one of the few courses in Scotland that has a dunescape similar to some of the Irish courses mentioned above. It does sit exposed to the North Sea, rather than along a firth. That might account for why the dunes there are so large.

If anyone has a better explanation, please feel free to tell me how (and why) I am wrong! ;)

Ally Mcintosh

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2007, 10:16:01 AM »
i like the basis of that david... although there are plenty of exceptions to it... the island, RCD, portrush, the european all sit on ireland's east coast and have some massive dunes...

the burns conundrum that jack highlights is interesting though... i guess it's after looking at carnoustie which certainly has some wide and exact water hazards... but quite a few scottish courses are like that and i'm struggling to come up with an irish links that really presents its drains as a manicured and substantial water hazard... any suggestions?

Sean Walsh

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2007, 05:22:17 PM »
I've said on here before that Ballyliffin Old is a Scottish course in Ireland and Cruden Bay is an Irish course in Scotland.

Rosapenna Old also fits with the idea that heaving dunes weren't considered ideal (most probably because golf was played at a much lower trajectory pre 1900).  The Old course there is set on mainly flat humpy land while the Pat Ruddy course is in the heaving dunes adjacent.  


Ally Mcintosh

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2007, 04:18:53 AM »
i guess the dune conundrum has been answered... makes perfect sense...

...still like to hear people's views on the streams / burns...

jack, if you're back playing, we really should try and get that round in before the end of the summer... pretty pathetic attempt to organise it last time...

Donal Breasail

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2007, 11:23:14 AM »
rossapenna and ballyliffen are both near the top of ireland and so are not geographically that far from scotland ,i also agree that cruden bay has a very irish feel to it.

I've said on here before that Ballyliffin Old is a Scottish course in Ireland and Cruden Bay is an Irish course in Scotland.

Rosapenna Old also fits with the idea that heaving dunes weren't considered ideal (most probably because golf was played at a much lower trajectory pre 1900).  The Old course there is set on mainly flat humpy land while the Pat Ruddy course is in the heaving dunes adjacent.  



Phil Benedict

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2007, 02:34:40 PM »
A lot of people I know who have played Scottish and Irish links courses seem to prefer the latter.  It must be because there is more eye candy to be had in Ireland.

Evan_Smith

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2007, 03:16:05 PM »
i like the basis of that david... although there are plenty of exceptions to it... the island, RCD, portrush, the european all sit on ireland's east coast and have some massive dunes...

the burns conundrum that jack highlights is interesting though... i guess it's after looking at carnoustie which certainly has some wide and exact water hazards... but quite a few scottish courses are like that and i'm struggling to come up with an irish links that really presents its drains as a manicured and substantial water hazard... any suggestions?

Rosses Point fits this Ally.  Burns come into play on 5-8 and 13-15.  Even though I haven't played the Scottish courses, it seemed to be very Scottish to me.  Mostly flat land and the grass was cut so that balls would gather into the burns.  These are the holes that are on the flat portion of the course.  1-4 and the 17th green and 18th hole are up on the headlands portion.  9-12 are on another upper portion of land, but it's different than the other upper holes.  David mentioned Rosses Point as a west coast dunesland course, but other than the barrier along the ocean on holes 13-16 (where the dunes don't come into play) there are no dunes on the course.

Richard Phinney

Re:Difference between Scottish and Irish links
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2007, 03:24:47 PM »
Not entirely convinced by the East vs West coast theory, and rather like Sean's theories though different topography obviously has an impact. Certainly some of the more rambunctious (though not all of course) Irish links were only attempted after the availability of modern machinery.  Hard to imagine Ballyliffen New, Carne, the European, Sandy Hills, Ballybunion new, the revised Enniscrone, evolving before the machine age. They are all, in various ways, in the image of Ballybunion Old, the quintessential Irish course in the minds of so many.  It's interesting to consider whether Irish golf architecture of the last 30 years might be quite different if Ballybunion had never existed.  Maybe there's a new thread possibility here - a list of the most influential courses in terms of golf course design (and no doubt it has already been done here!).  

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