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Mike_Young

What makes a good bunker?
« on: July 17, 2007, 11:16:04 AM »
What makes a good bunker?
Pat M had a bunker thread a few days back and Wille Dow mentioned bunker bottoms and their strategy.  Got me to thinking since have always considered the slope of the bunker bottom to be as critical to shot difficulty as face height, depth, sand texture. So tell me how you rate the components of a good bunker....AND NO CHANNELLING ODG's for consultation.....

ME
1. placement and angle in relation to the strategy being implemented
2. acceptable chance of recovery relative to the severity of the mishit that put you there
3.  Internal strategies such a slope of bottom, face angle to sand etc...
4. aesthetics
5. maintenance relative to the type of course whether private, municipal, semi etc
6.  WOW factor

what else or what order?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

redanman

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2007, 11:23:02 AM »
Please, all of you e-mail me photos of your favorite bunkers

use redanman@gmail.com

Good bunkers MUST have good placement and must be "hungry", that is they must "feed".

cary lichtenstein

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2007, 12:17:09 PM »
I love bunkers in all shapes and sizes. I especially like the ones that require you to be creative with your shot making.

What I dislike the most, is when the architect is totally redundant and all 18 holes use essentially the same bunker.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Peter Pallotta

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2007, 12:26:21 PM »
Mike,

I think W. Vostinak has it right on - those are the essentials.

An aside: more important I think than the aesthetics is the "appropriateness".  If there is no sand for a hundred miles, maybe sand bunkers are not the best choice.

Peter

Phil_the_Author

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2007, 12:31:59 PM »
Mike,

As much as I was cursing you both under and over my breath last week when I found the front bunker on #17 at LS, I agree with most of your observations.

One I am in disagreement with is your statement of, "the acceptable chance of recovery relative to the severity of the mishit that put you there..."

I don't believe that bunkers should be designed as an object to corral "mishits" (no, I am not saying that is what you were stating either), rather, I believe they are a feature of proper strategic design. They are put in place to make the player think.

Consider what a golf course would be without bunkers. It would require that every green be on the nature of #14 at ANGC with a great deal of interior movements and undulations in order to create any strategy to the hole whatsoever.

Bunkers allow an architect to design the entire hole with strategy and risk/reward options in mind. It allows him to be far more creative.

As a result, I think that bunkers should not be designed based upon how one can make a recovery shot. One of the reason's we are so enamored with the Open championship and links golf is the exquisitely penal nature of the bunkers. How many times will we hear an announcer say in the next few days that the only shot available to the player is to hit it out sideways or even backwards? And yet this will be followed by a statement that garners mutual agreement of what a fine design feature it is.

Bunkers should not be fair, though that having been said, they ought not be overly unfair either.

By the way, my first shot on 17 hit into the top and came back down and past where I stood. I had to kill the wedge to get it on in 3.

You bastard...  ;D

Scott Witter

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2007, 01:56:13 PM »
Aesthetics:  To expand a bit Mike the bunker should fit its surroundings with proportion and scale valued to the site in order for it to 'look right' IMO, this can be a  O'natural appearing bunker or one that was created in a crisp and deliberate style liking to Raynor, MacDonald, or Langford.

I agree with you that placement weighs in 1st, for there are so many considerations by the designer that comes with this parameter...so most of the other criteria mentioned are inherently covered IMO.

I also agree with you about the configuration of the bottom/slope with respect to the difficulty for recovery.  Surely a steep face and depth 3 feet or more will heighten the difficulty especially when the bottom is flat or flattish.

Strategy, placement and wow factor to me can all conspire to do the most effective damage, cause great grieve and mental frustration to the player when standing on the tee or in the approach...MAKE THEM THINK!  They need to be hazards first.

redanman

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2007, 02:19:57 PM »
I'd also add that bunkers ought to be relatively sparse if they're "hungry" and from somewhat penal to downright unfair!

Kalen Braley

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2007, 02:44:57 PM »
13 at PD


Adam Clayman

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2007, 02:46:00 PM »
I appreciate bunkers that resemble a stereotypical Ross bunker. One that clearly identifies the distance control test. Pete Dye's lines also delineate nicely.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ian Andrew

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2007, 02:51:35 PM »
A great bunker is the one that entices you to flirt with it. Each day you play a tighter line till one day you find the bunker and make a bad score. The next day you play well away and continue to flirt towards the bunker until you eventually hit it in to repeat the cycle. If you never break the cycle over a period of years then the bunkers is a great bunker.

In short: The bunker must defend an ideal position worth playing for and have enough teeth for you to regret ever taking it on.

There - my words - no channeling dead guys today.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 02:58:14 PM by Ian Andrew »

David_Tepper

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2007, 02:55:22 PM »
I would refer everyone interested to the book "Bunkers, Pits and Other Hazards," by our fellow GCA-ers Forrest Richardson & Mark Fine!

Michael Blake

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2007, 03:56:31 PM »
Posted by: Ian Andrew
Quote
A great bunker is the one that entices you to flirt with it. Each day you play a tighter line till one day you find the bunker and make a bad score. The next day you play well away and continue to flirt towards the bunker until you eventually hit it in to repeat the cycle. If you never break the cycle over a period of years then the bunkers is a great bunker.


Spot on analysis Ian.

Damn those flirty bunkers!  Damn them all to hell! (In my best
Charlton Heston voice)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2007, 06:46:31 PM »
Mike Young,

Location, location, location
The effective Visual signal to the golfer
Functionality

Location will usually dictate strategy and signficance.
The visual signal to the golfer's eye is an important tactical element, and,
Functionality in terms of intended purpose is important.

Kalen Braley,

I don't consider the bulk of the bunker at # 13 at PD very functional since a great portion of it is out of play.

While it sends a clear signal to the golfers eye, it's locaton, extending over several zip codes, removes it from most direct play.

I'm off, be back later.

Mark_Fine

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2007, 07:39:10 PM »
Mike,
Nice start with your list!  As you and others well know, one could write a whole book (and then some) on this topic.  Maybe Forrest has time to write down some of our thoughts (which are many) or maybe David can offer a few tidbits  ;)
Mark

Kalen Braley

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2007, 09:38:05 PM »

Kalen Braley,

I don't consider the bulk of the bunker at # 13 at PD very functional since a great portion of it is out of play.

While it sends a clear signal to the golfers eye, it's locaton, extending over several zip codes, removes it from most direct play.

I'm off, be back later.

With the prevailing wind in the winter, perhaps.

But in the summer when you are hitting into the teeth of it, even just a slight fade will find that bunker unless you are aiming out to the cliff edge.  I found it and took an unplayable as it was way near the top of the dune (I sliced my 2nd).  I know its only a couple of data points, but as we watched both the group in front of us and behind us, at least one person went in there as well.

One of the most amazing and intimidating bunkers I've ever seen...

Tim Bert

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2007, 09:59:04 PM »
I love a good par 3 with one dominating bunker.  The kind where you know you're better off playing well away from it regardless of the pin position.  Yet the bunker looks just small enough from the tee that you always unknowingly adjust back to where your eye wants to hit it whether you know better or not.  "It's so small; the odds of hitting INTO it can't be that great."  Someone in the group always ends up in this bunker!

#12 at Bandon Dunes and #5 at Ballyneal do a good job of this in my opinion.

Jeff Doerr

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2007, 01:30:20 AM »
This is looking back on 12 from 13 tee.



I love the centerline bunker at PacDunes #2 - not the best image...

"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Ray Richard

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2007, 08:31:00 AM »
Good bunkers are based on many design and construction elements that include the following;

1. Drainage-Any surface water should be redirected around each bunker by use of swales and mounding, you don't want to see surface rain water going directly into bunkers. Subsurface drainage (pipe and aggregate or sand backfill) should be installed deep enough to allow for positive drainage.  Drainage outflows should have plenty of pitch and should be maintained properly.

2. Bunker floor- The subgrade (under the sand) should be shaped so that it pitches toward a low drainage point that has a pipe or wet well as its termination point. The bunker floor should consist of firm material capable of compaction. If you have any doubts install a bunker blanket, a geofabric cloth that is fastened with sod staples, on the bunker floor.

3. Bunker sand-Get it from a reputable sand supplier, have it tested for USGA performance. Test it periodically during construction, batches can vary! If you don't want to choose the sand ( and take the heat), get a few suppliers to drop off approved samples and install it in a sectioned practice bunker, than have a membership vote. When installing, keep the depth uniform and compact the sand before opening the bunker.

4. Earthworks-Build the bunker surrounds with plenty of compaction, to avoid the "melted ice cream" effect of soil settling after construction. Pound the subsoil every 8-10 inches using machinary or compaction equipment. You should than add 4" to 6" of topsoil as a finished grade.

5.Sod-Choose the effect you want (shaggy or smooth), get the best sod, than be sure to include an individual "bunker zone" in your construction budget. This is a string of small spray heads, installed around the bunker perimeter, that will insure that your new bunker installation will have healthy, irrigated sod. This new zone can be plumbed into your existing system and can be wired in to your controller system.

6. Architect- Check out some before and after pictures on previous projects.

Willie_Dow

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2007, 05:49:45 PM »
Mike:  Ekwanok Country Club in Manchester, Vt has done a great job reworking their bunkers.  They have kept the cost of maintenance well under control by use of sandpro equipment and affording access to their bunkers for their use.  I followed the bunker man with his equipment and a leaf rake for the flashed up faces, and he just kept going and going like the energizer rabbit.

Andrew Balakshin

Re:What makes a good bunker?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2007, 08:11:32 PM »
I know the edges of the floor need to have a bowl shape and not be “rampy”.

Apart from the bowl shape making the bunker look good aesthetically, it helps the ball roll to a playable spot (and reduces sand being sprayed out of the bunker).

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