[Scott Szabo]

Matt,

Sure they can play different depending on the wind, tee and pin placement, etc.  But assuming not much wind you are looking at basically the same shot on all three.

That's why I enjoy Ballyneal and Sand Hills so much.  Not only the variety in length, but also uphill/downhill and varying directions.  The wind only adds another dimension to what the architect has given to start with. 

You don't have to build a 200-plus yard par three for it to be a good one, and you certainly don't need three that play that closely together as far as lentgh goes. 

[Matt_Ward]

Scott:

On the surface what you said is true.

However ...

the greens in all instances are quite large -- the actual differential in pin placement versus tee pad can vary as much as 40-50 yards. Throw in the wind and things can be very different.

Likely you have not played the course but The Trophy Club has the fullest range of shot situations and the routing was well done to get the most out of the property. Few flat courses I have played can exceed it for the quality.

[Bill Seitz]

Tim, you touched on it briefly, but can you (or anyone, I guess) comment on the length of the course from the various tees?  You might not have input over it, but it seemed to me like, just looking at the total length from each tee set, that it was a course ripe for a "hybrid" set up, where some holes are played from the tips and other from the blues.  I played it once a few years ago and really enjoyed the course, but my one criticism is that it jumps from about 6,500 yards to 7,300 yards with really nothing in between.  Seems like something in the 6,800 range would have been a nice middle ground.  I also seem to recall thinking that from the blue tees and forward, 16 would have made a really great long par 4.  

Other than that, I really liked the layout and thought it was a lot of fun to play.  I hope to get down there again, but I don't head in that direction as often since my friend in Indy moved to San Diego.

[Bret Swanson]

I've played Trophy Club maybe four times and have always enjoyed the wide-open layout, nice greens, and some good strategic choices. Has always been in good shape, too. Although last time I played got a phone call on about the 11th hole to go retrieve our eight year old and didn't get to finish the round. Looking forward to another round or two there this summer.

[Matthew Sander]

Apropos that this thread is renewed while the other affordable golf thread is active. TTC is a fantastic affordable public course. It has width, options, variety, visual noise, and several superb greens. I've heard several say that it shows what can be done with a flat site, but I don't agree that the site is terribly flat. It may not be dramatic, but it has some significant roll in places and is ideal for good golf. For example, the elevation on the 11th hole is used to great effect. It not only provides visual interest to the hole, but also brings strategic options. Laying up to the high ground on the right is more difficult and semi-blind, but the reward is a much easier pitch slightly down to the green. Additionally, the holes on flatter ground utilize subtle landforms (unsure to what extent they are natural or man-made) so you don't visually get the impression that you are on dead-flat, uninspiring land.

As Matt Ward stated, Indy has to be one of the country's best cities for affordable public golf. TTC, The Fort, Bear Slide, Purgatory, and several others are excellent choices. In comparison, while Chicago has many public options, I don't think we have the combination of variety, quality, and value that Indy can offer. I've only played a few of the Indy private courses, but I would wager a guess that the area's publics may be nearly as good as the area's private options (feel free to tell me to go pound sand if you think this ill-informed speculation is bogus).

As an aside, none of the four specific courses I mentioned are part of a residential development. Quite surprising when you consider they were all built in the 90's and early 2000's...

[Matt_Ward]

Matthew S:

What's really shocking is how DUMB so many of the key golf mags are in highlighting Hoosier golf. Many people erroneously head either to Chicago or Columbus thinking they are better -- I have found the immediate Indy area and other areas within the state to be a real positive force -- public golf in the Hoosier State is vastly underrated -- save for the people who actually live there.

[PThomas]

perhaps a GCA outing there and /or at a few of these Indy courses over a few days..

if people are interested pls say so and i'll look into setting something up

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Sounds like a good idea -- frankly, many of the golf mags just go about the dumb highlights for general resort areas that have been vastly overhyped and don't provide the combination of solid designs and affordability. The Hoosier State does that -- The Trophy Club would get even more attention if it were in a larger size metro area. That's too bad.

[Matthew Sander]

A question to those interested: Why do we think that Indy is largely ignored for its quality golf (I tend to agree with Matt Ward's assertion, but maybe it is incorrect.)? Do you think that it is because most of Indy's golf history is recent? Crooked Stick is its highest profile course and it is fairly young (1964). Indy doesn't have the pedigree of golden age private clubs that many cities have. There are old clubs (Broadmoor for example), but none that are considered as highly as private clubs in a city like Chicago. I tend to feel that cities like Chicago gain their golf reputation due to their historic private clubs. Many consider Chicago a great golf city, and it is, but is it a great golf destination for those without access? Also, do public courses that are tied to resorts or destinations receive more attention than stand alone examples?

[Chris_Clouser]

Paul et al,

Let me know as well if you are interested in an outing in Indy.  After last year suffering through a shoulder and neck injury and only playing once my wife can't complain if I take a few days to play this year.  

Matthew,

I think what you touched on is part of it, at least from an external viewpoint.  I think the other part is the state is awful at marketing themselves as a golf destination.  Not only is the golf affordable, but with the exception of the casino courses, accomodations are as well.  There are excellent options in every part of the state with the exception of the mid-eastern part of the state (east of Indy to the Ohio state line).  I just wish my publisher would not have gone out of business last year and I could hook you all up with copies of my book.  

If anyone wants a list of courses around the state and what would be good combinations to visit, shoot me a PM or e-mail.  Indy metro area alone has probably 7 or 8 high quality public courses that would be worth a visit. 

[Matt_Ward]

Matthew S:

The Indy market is not on the A listing of media markets -- either for mass population or for the general golf-oriented "usual suspects" list that the golf mags follow. I mean do we really need another over-the-top shamelss promotion of the Grand Strand ?

The issue Matthew is that bias / ignorance still reins supreme. Indy has been around for quite some and has hosted a variety of USGA Championships. The public side is full of solid designs to play -- frankly so is much of the state itself.

The issue you mentioned is spot on -- access !

Much of the talk of not only Chicago golf -- but NYC and Phila, to name two other locations, is tied to mainly the private side.

The problem is that the mags follow the advertorial side of things and all you get is the same 99th version of the scottsdale, vegas, myrtle beach, upper michigan layouts.

[Bill Seitz]

Indy metro area alone has probably 7 or 8 high quality public courses that would be worth a visit. 

I've played Purgatory, Trophy, and the Fort and I've really enjoyed my rounds at all three.  The latter two had some really nice terrain in my opinion, the type we don't always see in Chicago.  The Fort was a real treat.  I was supposed to play Bear Slide once, but unfortunately got rained out. 

For years I've made the trip to West Lafayette a couple times per year to meet a friend who lived in Indy.  We'd play one round each at Kampen and Coyote Crossing each time, and those were great days of golf.  Very inexpensive, well conditioned golf courses, and both really different despite being only a few miles from one another.  I'd recommend that trip to anyone from Chicago.  I remember doing it one time when the whole day took about 10-11 hours, including four hours of driving and two rounds of golf.  That was pretty solid. 

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

You are right -- Indiana does a piss poor job in communicating just what is there.

Most people simply drive thru or fly over it for other locations.

The stack of true public courses -- not connected with a resort -- is very appealing.

In my mind, Indiana is just behind the likes of Colorado for quality and affordable public layouts as a state.

[John Nixon]

Wow, I'm glad my little semi-serious comment about the lack of development around TC re-ignited a discussion on the wonders of Indiana public golf. 

I'd certainly be interested in some sort of outing. As Chris mentioned, the Indy area alone has a lot of worthy candidates. Purgatory and Bear Slide are actually fairly close to each other. The Trophy Club is not that far from them either.

[Tim Liddy]

I am in, but will also make you play Rock Hollow.

[Richard Hetzel]

perhaps a GCA outing there and /or at a few of these Indy courses over a few days..

if people are interested pls say so and i'll look into setting something up

Count me IN. I play in Indy (drive from Cincinnati) 2-3 per year, maybe more. The Trophy Club is awesome, as is The Fort and Bearslide. Purgatory, for me anyway, was a bit overrated, but still a run round (even with walking 18 in the rain).

[Bret Swanson]

Give me a shout-out, too, when planning the Trophy gathering. I'm just 20 minutes away.

Bret

[Doug Ralston]

Even I, who loves mountain golf, still likes Indianapolis for it's really good publics.

Tim; unfortunately Sultan's Run is too far out of the way for that projected golf runaround. Rock Hollow is nicely close to Indy. My rating of Indiana publics goes something like this [and you play prominant]:

1. The Fort
2. Sultan's Run
3. Trophy Club
4. Coyote Crossing
5. Rock Hollow

Indiana, and especially the Indianapolis area, should please most any golfer and be little threat to their bank accounts.

Doug

[Chris_Clouser]

Other courses in the area would include Prairie View in Carmel.  It is a very solid course.  That is a lot of northside love though.  On the southwest side of town are Brickyard Crossing and Heartland Crossing.  Both worth a look see.  The are a couple of great ways to get some affordable outing rates through the Hamilton Country Visitors Bureau to many of the courses mentioned.  If you want to tie in some extra Liddy, you could do Hickory Stick in Greenwood as well. 

[Criss Titschinger]

I would be interested depending on when this happens and how many rounds we'd play. I haven't played as much Indianapolis golf as I really should have, and this would be a great opportunity to scratch a few off the list.

[Matthew Sander]

In keeping with recent suggestions, I’m going to attach some pics to Chris C.’s existing Trophy Club thread. The photos are from this past summer.

Rather than doing a full tour, I’ll just post some pics with some brief observations as Chris did an excellent job explaining the course in the previous posts. Thanks…



A couple views looking up at the 2nd hole’s green and surrounds…the second hole is the first of a good group of par 5’s.




The deep bunker guarding the front left of the par 4 3rd green.




The 4th is a very natural looking par 3. It is a mid to long iron into a green that is open in front with slopes that help the ball work right to left.




Some of the bunkering…




Near the green on the par 4 5th and then looking back over the bunkers incorporated into the native area…





The 6th is a strong par 4. The aggressive tee shot over the right hand bunkers will take advantage of a downslope that will leave a much shorter approach.



After carrying the bunker on the tee shot…



The sixth green is one of the best on the course and is biarritz-ish with a large swale running through the middle…





From the tee at the par 3 8th…



…and looking back.




The 9th is another par 5 with options from tee to green. These pics are of the approach and green surrounds…





The short approach to the par 4 10th …



…the nasty little bunker left of the green.




The 11th is the best par 5 on the course, and possibly the best hole. From the tee it is quite open, but the result of your tee shot could factor in to the more important 2nd shot decision…



You are faced with a distinct decision when laying up. Play the easier shot to the lower left portion of fairway and leave yourself a difficult uphill semi-blind approach, or take the higher right hand fairway which leaves an much easier downhill pitch shot…




Here are some views of the significant slopes around the green…






Some views of the short par 4 12th…




The 13th is another standout hole. It is a switchback par 4 that requires you to aim uncomfortably left unless you use less than driver. It is visually ambiguous from the tee and the shot requires commitment and precision…



The small green is well defended and features a well contoured putting surface…






The par 3 14th…




The par 4 15th features a large bunker left that you can play short of, around, or over…



The approach to a table-top green that has steep fall-offs on all sides…





The par 5 16th has a creek running down the entire left side of the hole. The creek would make the hole play as a “cape” except that hugging the creek will leave you blocked out from having a go at the green with your second. To leave yourself a chance to hit the green in two you must play to the right half of the fairway…




The green slopes significantly right to left and has a pronounced shoulder or “hog’s back” that pushes shots to the left hand side of the green…





The well defended 17th green…




The 18th is a strong finishing par 4. There are some blind bunkers in the fairway as discussed earlier in the thread which can surprise a well struck tee shot…

[John Nixon]

Trophy Club is on my list of courses to play this year - I've not yet managed to make that arduous trek all the way from Carmel.

OK, only 4+ years later I finally got to Trophy Club today. Absolutely crazy warm temps we're having in Indy this week - I guess someone on the Indy Super Bowl host committee has some pull with someone upstairs.

Wow, this course immediately shoots to my top 3 in the state list, if not to #1. Lots to mull over in my head about this course, but until I have more to post I'll just add that this is a very fine effort by Mr. Liddy. And through no fault of the photographers, there is no way to convey the wonderful ebb and flow of the terrain of these holes.

[Mike Hendren]

Bump.  Perhaps the best $29 course I've played.  (I was in town Monday stalking Peyton Manning).

Mike

[Matthew Sander]

Bogey,

Glad to hear you enjoyed your round(s) at The Trophy Club. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts about the course.

I've heard comments before that Liddy did an excellent job with a nondescript piece of land. Granted, it is not an exceptional property, but it does have some movement and features that I doubt are entirely man made. I think it is how he used that movement that makes the course what it is. I've played many courses on similar property where the architect would use the elevation that was on the site primarily for tees so that players are presented with an unobstructed view. At TC however, there are several semi-blind tee shots, approach shots, and lay ups that use the features to create some uncertainty.

[David Stewart]

Bogey,

Glad to hear you enjoyed your round(s) at The Trophy Club. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts about the course.

I've heard comments before that Liddy did an excellent job with a nondescript piece of land. Granted, it is not an exceptional property, but it does have some movement and features that I doubt are entirely man made. I think it is how he used that movement that makes the course what it is. I've played many courses on similar property where the architect would use the elevation that was on the site primarily for tees so that players are presented with an unobstructed view. At TC however, there are several semi-blind tee shots, approach shots, and lay ups that use the features to create some uncertainty.

Matthew is right on here. The land isn't great, but Liddy took full advantage of it. For example at the 11th, a lesser architect would have just run the hole along the creek to the left on flat ground, making it another cookie-cutter hole with a water hazard down one side to avoid. However, Liddy built the hole to the right next to a ridge and cut a wonderful central bunker into the center of the hole to give it great stategic interest. Just one example I quickly thought of.

Tim - was there ever consideration of putting the 11th right across the creek from the 2nd or were you always going to use the better land to the right?

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