Poll: US or UK model for Private Courses

[Kalen Braley]

The thread about which system is preferrable for playing private courses in both the US and UK created quite a bit of debate and strong opinions. Surprise, surprise    

So here is a poll to express your opinion and see which model the majority of this site prefer.

http://kbjames.freepolls.com/cgi-bin/polls/001/poll_center.htm

[David_Tepper]

Kalen -

The "debate and strong opinions" can be directly contributed to the comments of someone who has never played golf in GB&I, yet feels qualified to comment upon the nature of golf and golf clubs there.

If you read the thread, you will find the vast majority of the comments, from those who have actually played golf in GB&I, are in agreement with the premise of Tommy W.'s proposition.

DT

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen -

The "debate and strong opinions" can be directly contributed to the comments of someone who has never played golf in GB&I, yet feels qualified to comment upon the nature of golf and golf clubs there.

If you read the thread, you will find the vast majority of the comments, from those who have actually played golf in GB&I, are in agreement with the premise of Tommy W.'s proposition.

DT

I suspected as such David,

Just wanted to put together a little informal poll.

So far after 24 votes:
67% in favor of UK model, 25% for American model, and the rest indifferent....

If it were an election, it'd be a landslide  

[Mike Benham]

Perhaps you can explain what the UK model is ...

[Doug Siebert]

It would be more interesting if you also asked whether the person was a US resident who was a member of a US style private club, or a UK resident who was a member of a UK style private club, or neither.

I'll bet the ones who prefer the US style private clubs are the ones who are members of such clubs, while almost all the non-members of US style privates would advocate for the UK style or have no preference.

[John Kavanaugh]

Perhaps someone can say if a private UK club even exists.  You can't be a little bit private.

[Mike Benham]

Do UK clubs have tennis courts, workout facilities, swimming pools and seperate Mens and Ladies locker rooms?

[Tom Birkert]

Do UK clubs have tennis courts, workout facilities, swimming pools and seperate Mens and Ladies locker rooms?

Only the newer ones, designed to try and be like the US "country clubs".

You wouldn't find a tennis court, gym or pool at most classic UK courses. Separate changing rooms and bars? That's a different matter...

[Mark Pearce]

Do UK clubs have tennis courts, workout facilities, swimming pools and seperate Mens and Ladies locker rooms?

No uniform answer but no, no, no and yes in nearly all cases.  Some of the more expensive clubs veer towards the US model and may have tennis courts, gyms and pools (Moor Park and Wentworth spring to mind).

It's apparent that JK really won't come close to getting a grasp of how it  works here until he visits.  I'll add my name to those on the other thread who have offered to host him if (when) he finally makes it over.

[Mark Chaplin]

For those who haven't played over in GB&I we have 2 types of private club;

Proprietary clubs owned by a person or business which allows members, pay and play societies and often weddings and the like. Examples would be The Addington, Wentworth, Loch Lomond, Gleneagles & Archerfield.

The vast majority of private clubs are private members clubs. The members own the club and usually the land and buildings. The club is "run by and for the benefit of the members". Most members clubs allow visitors usually Mon-Fri although many also have a ladies day when visitors are restricted. Private members clubs tend to be golf facilities only. Visitor income would usually amount to around 20-25% of turnover although clubs on the tourist route could be as high as 70-80%.

There are some totally private members clubs such as Glasgow GC, Wisley and Swinley Forest.

Annual fees tend to range from around £500 in more rural areas to £2000 for top south east and London courses. I would guess the average annual fee nationally is around £800-£900 or $1600-$1800 US. There is no monthly spend although many clubs add a modest £50-£100 a year to members bar cards.

I hope this helps your voting!!

[Tom Birkert]

The post above by Mark is pretty accurate, the only thing missing is the joining fee, which obviously varies from club to club but normally wouldn't get up to more than £20,000 (and a lot of places are significantly less).

We also offer County Membership at a lot of clubs, where should you live more than 100 miles away you pay reduced annual subs.

A lot of clubs also have junior or cadet sections (I'm still a junior at 29!), which often mean lower joining fees and annual subs.

It's certainly far more affordable as far as I'm concered.

[Mark Pearce]

I'd expect that less than 5% of UK clubs have joining fees over£10k.  Typically I'd expect them to be of the same order of magnitude but slightly higher than the annual fee.  My club's joining fee is £1000, annual subs are £900.

[Jon Earl]

My brother is a member at the fairly exclusive Bearwood Lakes which, until recently, did not allow unaccompanied play (they now have a limited number of visitor tee times a la Muirfield). The joining fee was in the region of £5000 and the annual subs is about £2500.

On another level, I played with a member of the Wisley recently and I believe the cost of the debenture to join there is around £40000. Not sure of the annual dues.

A number of the Old School clubs in my vicinity (e.g. The Addington and Purley Downs) are waiving the joining fee in order to attract new members. The Addington would have the most expensive annual subs in the area at £2000 with the average being £1000.

[Mark Chaplin]

Jon - Unfortunately The Addington has gone from being very Old School to new money after Mr Noades purchased the club from the shareholders, not all members were share holders. Is Bearwood Lakes proprietary or members owned?

Mark/Tom - I can only think of a handfull or so of clubs where the entrance fee is over £10k, Wisley, Queenwood, Loch Lomond, Archerfield (guess). These fees are obviously paying for development costs. I do not know if any of the traditional Surrey member clubs charge more.

Most clubs seem to charge around 100%-300% of the annual fee as joining fee.

[SPDB]

I think its interesting how a number of the well known golf courses in Scotland have a number of Golf Clubs that play over the same course. Examples include Tantallon and North Berwick Golf Club (play over the West Links), Dirleton Castle, the Artisans Club and Gullane (play over Gullane). There are a number at St. Andrews (R&A GC, St. Andrews GC, The New Golf Club, Thistle Golf Club).

[Tom Birkert]

Mark/Tom - I can only think of a handfull or so of clubs where the entrance fee is over £10k, Wisley, Queenwood, Loch Lomond, Archerfield (guess). These fees are obviously paying for development costs. I do not know if any of the traditional Surrey member clubs charge more.

Most clubs seem to charge around 100%-300% of the annual fee as joining fee.

From my understanding of things the clubs that charge the larger amounts tend to be the ones owned by corporations. I would imagine Wentworth belongs in that price bracket, I think their annual subs are pretty high (pushing £5,000 I believe)?

Queenwood must be the most expensive in England if what I hear is correct, The Wisley certainly used to be...

That said, even with those joining fees, I'd say the overall cost is far lower than for equivalent clubs in the US.

[John Kavanaugh]

Even before being rudely interrupted and nearly shouted down at a joint Grounds-Golf committee meeting last week, I preferred UK to US especially the handicapping method and respect for pace of play. American obsession with four balls constantly in play is a national disgrace.

Americans just do not respect the game and it permeates all aspects of Country Clubs; our "Golf Clubs" are a bit better.  Mostly we have CC's though. That's why John Barney Kavanaugh was asking about "tennis courts, workout facilities, swimming pools" - we have to put up with that dung to play our golf.

Oh and BTW, It is not alright for 26 handicappers to shoot 78 and 20's to shoot 76 and have no punishment.  The mathematics does not in any way  support these thieves.

UK players, please tell me which clubs support Fourballs always having the right not to allow two and three balls to play through when

a)visibly being held up
b)two holes are open ahead

Lastly, of course put me down for preferring UK model.

Bill,

With all the great clubs in your area why do you remain at a club littered with so many jerks?  I can't believe that when you go to the UK to play with the rest of the tourists you don't run into the same rude people.

[Jon Earl]

Jon - Unfortunately The Addington has gone from being very Old School to new money after Mr Noades purchased the club from the shareholders, not all members were share holders. Is Bearwood Lakes proprietary or members owned?

Mark

Bearwood Lakes is a PLC but I have no idea who owns the shares. It is not the members. They have a 'Founders' circle on the walk between 2 of the holes but I don't know if those individuals retain the shares.

You are right about the Addington. They even let riff-raff like me pitch up clutching my half-price round voucher (being a member of another Noades course has it's advantages) in my grubby hand and allow me to play.

[redanman]

Barney:

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