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archie_struthers

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2007, 11:20:17 AM »
 8) ;D :D


Hey guys I'm an unabashed Willie Park, Jr. fan, if only for how hard Greate Bay (somers-point oc ) plays everyday.

Now that the greens are good, you just think someone would tear it up, it just doesn't happen.

This 1923 Park course (despite some renovations by George Fazio 70's   Ron Garl 80.s and some recent tinkering /restoration  by some other wanna be)  still shines through.  

Parks' subtle use of false fronts fascinates me, and I contend this simple design feature is one of the best ever, protecting par without penalizing the weaker player and contributing to slowwwwwww play, the bane of golf.

I regret not having been able to play any of his designs overseas,, oh well,  maybe someday.

As to Charles Banks, anyone who has played Forsgate can see the genius there.

regards  "archie"

Kyle Harris

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2007, 11:27:04 AM »
Archie,

Not only was Park a master of the false front, but he also used the "waterfall" front as a way of allowing the wily player to use the bump at the front of the green to control a long approach into a green to stop near a front pin or roll to a back pin.

Park False Front (7th PSU White):


Park Waterfall Front (to be restored) (10th PSU White):

archie_struthers

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2007, 11:57:28 AM »
 8) ;D ;)

Kyle

"a closed mouth collects no foot"  


perfect....should be in every caddies notebook along with

"samson killed 10,000 with the jawbone of an ass"


know the yardage... the pace of the greens.....be polite....get out front ( forecaddy)  and most of all  shut up !    LOL

JESII

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2007, 12:02:38 PM »
Hey Archie, did you see that Obie's little brother Lance qualified for the GAP Open the other day at Little Mill. Good guy...both of them.

SPDB

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2007, 08:36:33 PM »
Mike -
Are you sure about Park, Jr. designing at Misquamicut? Can
you share where you learned this?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2007, 09:35:36 PM »
Mike -
Are you sure about Park, Jr. designing at Misquamicut? Can
you share where you learned this?

Sean,
 
In Harpers Guide to American Golf, circa 1900, it says under the caption for Misquamicut Golf Club;

"The club has a full eighteen hole course and a very substantial clubhouse.  The first nine holes were laid out by Willie Park Jr. in 1895, and the second by Willie Anderson in 1896."

Annual dues were $25 and the membership was 300 strong.

"
 

Kyle Harris

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2007, 10:04:20 PM »
Speaking of should-be skyline greens, here's my first effort of image modification using GIMP:

Before:


After:
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 10:35:18 PM by Kyle Harris »

Dan Moore

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2007, 04:06:20 PM »
Did Willie Park Jr. write about architecture at all?   If so where can his writings be found?  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Doug Braunsdorf

Re: Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #83 on: May 26, 2008, 04:09:27 PM »
Bumping this topic back up--came across this in a search for Park and Greate Bay. 
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Mike_Cirba

Re: Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #84 on: May 26, 2008, 09:57:29 PM »
Doug,

I'm still hoping to get over to Park's Berkshire this year.   The irony is that it's about 15 minutes from my house.

I was fortunate to play Glen Ridge a few weeks back.   There are some sterling holes out there and consistently wonderful green complexes, as you know.

Doug Braunsdorf

Re: Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #85 on: May 26, 2008, 11:38:59 PM »
Doug,

I'm still hoping to get over to Park's Berkshire this year.   The irony is that it's about 15 minutes from my house.

I was fortunate to play Glen Ridge a few weeks back.   There are some sterling holes out there and consistently wonderful green complexes, as you know.

Mike,

  How much Park is remaining at Greate Bay?  Looking at the aerial earlier tonight, I can see overall shapes and angles characteristic of Park.  Are there many pictures to be had?   
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 08:20:55 AM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Doug Braunsdorf

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #86 on: May 27, 2008, 08:22:09 AM »
Did Willie Park Jr. write about architecture at all?   If so where can his writings be found?  

Dan-

  Get with Kyle, I think he may be aware of some Park sources of information-
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Mike_Cirba

Re: Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #87 on: May 27, 2008, 09:23:07 AM »
Doug,

There is a decent amount of Park remaining at Greate Bay.  Archie Struthers can provide more details, I'm sure, but I know some was lost when George Fazio built a range in the 60s and again when Ron Garl created a "signature hole" or two in the 80s, but there is more than enough Park to warrant a visit.

Tony_Muldoon

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #88 on: May 27, 2008, 03:38:48 PM »
Did Willie Park Jr. write about architecture at all?   If so where can his writings be found?  

Dan if you really feel you have to his "The Game of Golf" was republished last year by Luath Press Ltd Edinburgh. There's one chapter Laying out and Keeping Golf Links but it's routine stuff.  I believe it was the first book by a professional (1886) but there's a reason why you rarely hear of it. (Was that diplomatic enough?).
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Mike_Cirba

He was one of the first—
I think we might almost agree that
he was the first—to perceive the possibilities
of inland golf course construction
on the finer, grander system
that we know now. He saw the immense
golf boom that was coming,
the demand that there must inevitably
be for many, new inland courses
of a better and more interesting type
than were generally in existence then.
Up to then the manner of designing
and making a hole was to put a plain
straight bank across the course in
front to be driven over, this arrangement,
with a little sand in front of it,
being known as a bunker, and, if the
hole were long enough, there was a
similar contrivance set up immediately
in front of the putting green. Generally
nothing more was considered
necessary, though if some elaboration
was desired similar banks were stuck
up somewhere on the left or on the
right. None of these things were
beautiful to look upon, they gave no
character to the holes, this being supplied
only by such local natural features
as trees, watercourses and
ponds; they were not in the least interesting,
and they made most holes
look very much like each other. Nor
did they tend to the smallest improvement
in the game of any player. This
was Victorian golf architecture, the
standard for which was set by that
indefatigable master of it, Willie
Dunn, who made his professional
mark on multitudinous patches of
land in many parts of the country.
Willie Park perceived that there
would soon be a demand for something
very much better, and he set
himself to devise it, to give to inland
courses some of the attributes of
those at the seaside where the holes
were fashioned by Nature and
abounded in features and strong character.
With imagination and money
it could be done. This scheme marked
the beginning of the new principles in
course architecture that have since
revolutionized the whole of inland
golf, not merely in England, but in
parts of the continent of Europe, all
over the United States, Canada, and
everywhere. Huntercombe and Sunningdale
were Willie Park's first productions.
He was responsible for the
primary designs of the architecture of
the latter, a beautiful course cut out
of a wilderness of heather on some
high, rolling land in Berkshire. Mr.
Colt soon set himself to work on the
first designs when they had been applied,
and he has carried out vast improvements
on the original model, so
that Sunningdale, as we know it now,
the inland course that I still consider
as the best and most delightful to play
upon in the whole of Britain, is not
at all what it was at first. Still Willie
was in at the beginning with Sunningdale;
that is a lasting distinction.
But he was much more closely concerned
with Huntercombe, a fine
piece of land in Oxfordshire, very
high up on a spur of the Chiltern
Hills. In many respects the situation
of Huntercombe was ideal, and it attracted
great fame to itself, but it suffered
from lack of accessibility, a difficult
uphill motor-car journey having
to be made from the Henley station
six miles away. Also it was a long
time before a proper clubhouse could
be built, and the only accommodation
was in a local farmhouse which was
taken over for the purpose, and there
was trouble with the water supply.
These difficulties have been overcome
since then, but, unfortunately for
Willie who invested his money in the
undertaking, he had to bear the brunt
of them. However he laid out on
these hills at Huntercombe a glorious
course with greens that were wonderfully
spacious and splendid. The
bunkering was done with imagination
and ingenuity, and the holes had fine
character. Willie set himself, as a
particular labour of love, to copy old
"Pandy" at Musselburgh, with its
plateau green, and produced a really
fine copy—with improvements—making
many special journeys between
Huntercombe and Musselburgh for
the purpose. It was then, and it still
is, one of the best pleasures in golf to
play the game at this place, but financially
the venture did not then thrive.
Willie had £11,500 of his own money
in it, and it was mostly lost. But for
that, America would probably not
have had him now.

Henry Leach 1917

Sean_A

Mike

Has it ever been in doubt that WPJr is the man who invented the idea of clearing trees to build something grand in the heathlands?  Colt certainly learned from Sunny when he built Swinley even if Colt had changed several greens, altered the bunkering and planted trees.  Sunny is the true model of what we all know as forest surrounded heathland courses.  I don't believe Fowler cleared much at Walton nor Dr Mac at Alwoodley and Notts is very different to its original, even so, that was a WPJR.  I have always believed that WPJr and Fowler started something special, but that Colt took it to wonderful heights which to a large degree is still the blue print for inland design today. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

TEPaul

"Has it ever been in doubt that WPJr is the man who invented the idea of clearing trees to build something grand in the heathlands?"


Sean:

Not to me has there been much doubt, not in years anyway. I think Park created a total breakthrough in the Heathlands by what he first did there. I've been mentioning that on here for years now.

I think the real breakthrough was that it may've been the first time in INLAND golf architecture that such a thing as massively clearing a site of not necessarily just trees but the ground of such things as rhododendrons and heather, happened on an INLAND site.

And that's not even the half of it, in my opinion. Why did they go to the time and expense of clearing that kind of ground in something like the Heathlands if they could just use another "meadow" site as they had been doing INLAND and outside Scotland for a few decades?

BECAUSE, the playability of those kinds of meadow sites was generally highly unpredictable, difficult to work with and on, difficult to find the kind of grass that would improve INLAND golf etc. The fact is the soil structure, drainage etc hiding underneath rhododendrons and heather in the Heathlands was remarkably similar to the sandy soil structure and drainage of the linksland and seaside golf. Plus the soil of the heathland was apparently naturally acidic like the linksland and acidity was naturally conducive to two types of grass that were natural to the linksland and excellent for good golf playability----eg agrostis and festuca (bent and fescue).

I don't know whether Park just got lucky with this find in the heathlands or if he, with others, had been actively looking to find something better than the rudimentary extremely inexpensive "meadow" sites and courses INLAND that preceded it.

I think Park and what he did in the Heathlands (basically Sunningdale and perhaps Huntercombe also) ushered in a new reality and new paradigm regarding INLAND golf and golf architecture INLAND---and that was if anyone wanted the architecture and the golf to be any good or anywhere near like seaside or linksland golf they were going to have to take a lot more time to do it and spend a lot more money actually physically shaping it and making it than they ever had to do before or perhaps ever contemplated before.

I think Park was the father of good INLAND golf course architecture!

It was hugely significant to the development of architecture and certainly INLAND and I think it was just as significant to the development of golf course agronomy because after the massive job of both clearing and shaping the land they for the first time INLAND also massively SEEDED it rather than what they had done previously with INLAND golf which was to just play on the land and grass just as both had always been there!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 02:25:37 PM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

I beg to differ. Darwin thought the breakthrough for inland golf occurred at Woking. In four different essays over a span of 40 years Darwin wrote about the revolution caused by what Low and Paton did at Woking. Simpson confirmed the pivotal role of Woking in a number of essays. Indeed, his decision to become an architect was based on the changes made at Woking.

Low's architecture chapter in his book Concerning Golf prefigured many key principles in strategic golf architecture.

Park wrote nothing nearly as insightful about the "placement of hazards". Park might be given credit for a new, more natural "look" of inland golf courses, but his actual design theories were not terribly interesting.

Bob

 

TEPaul

Bob:

In a sense the question is also one of timing---eg which came first but even with that the significance to architecture with what Park did at Sunningdale (and to some extent Huntercombe) and what Low and Paton did at Woking is not only not exactly mutually exclusive but also each deals with something of different areas and aspects to do with good golf course architecture INLAND.

Ulrich Mayring

It is totally unclear whether Paton/Low's work in Woking preceded Park's work at Sunningdale and Huntercombe or not - in any event it could not have been more than a few months. I'd give strategic design to Low/Paton due to the infamous centreline bunker introduced probably in 1900. However, that has nothing much to do with inland golf specifically, it is a general question of golf architecture.

As far as I can tell Park was the first to clear a site from trees, rocks and such so he could build on sandy soil and he was the first to grow a golf course from seeds.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

BCrosby

Woking had everything to do with inland golf. It was the test bed for design prnciples that Low and Paton had gleaned from the great links courses. It was the first transcription of the design ideas that made links course so good to inland courses.

In that respect Woking was revolutionary for inland couses. That was what impressed Darwin so much. He called Woking nothing less than the beginning of golf architecture. Remember too, that Darwin was also there to see it all, live and in person.

Bob

TEPaul

Ulrich:

I think Park's breakthrough projects at Sunningdale and Huntercombe preceded Paton/Low's breakthrough idea and feature at Woking by maybe 2-3 years.

I was just talking to Bob Crosby a moment ago and we were discussing that although both seem to have been incredibly significant in the evolution and development of golf course architecture, particularly INLAND, they did not exactly or necessarily deal with the very same thing or things.

If you'd like to know some more about what I mean by that I'd be glad to explain.

Sean_A

Bob

Woking was not completed as we know it today until well after WPJr did Sunningdale.  In fact, I am not sure it was completed before Colt made his changes at Sunningdale.  There i no question that Woking was influential in terms of design and especially transferring bunker schemes inland.  But there was no course like Sunningdale and which had to be carved through trees.  I believe the influence of WPJr is immense because of this, what Colt did with this idea later and the trandfer of these principles to USA.  Huntercombe, Walton Heath, Notts, Alwoodley nor Stoke Poges were quite on the same scale as Sunningdale which was envisioning a course through a forest and having its playing characteristics anywhere near the quality of links. 

Ciao

New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

TEPaul

"He called Woking nothing less than the beginning of golf architecture."


Bob:

If Darwin actually said just that I think that too is really fascinating to consider, particularly if Darwin had really thought through what all golf architecture meant to him or anyone else at that time. I'm sure you know what I mean by this. Frankly, I like it a lot as I've never been much of an advocate of defining the first architecture or the first architects as a bunch of sheepherders cutting a hole in the ground and smacking something round about the ground with their staffs. I've never felt that golf architecture even remotely began until say around the middle of the 19th century and probably with Alan Robertson who's been the one who generally seems to get the nod as the first to practice architecture.

Ulrich Mayring

Woking was built in 1893 by Tom Dunne. There can be no doubt that it was an ordinary (i. e. Victorian-style) golf course at the time. However, we do not know when Paton and Low started to work on it. In 1897 the magazine "Country Life" was founded after a round of golf at Woking - we do not know what the course looked like then. In 1899 Willie Park Jr. got the Sunningdale assignment. In 1900 (likely) Paton and Low installed the centreline bunker.

In my eyes it is not possible to say who built the first great inland holes. It may even have been at Mid-Surrey or the Richmond club.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

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