Willie Park Jr. - More documentation that he was the Father of Inland Naturalism

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

If memory serves, there were other pics as well that were a tad more "Philmontish".  

Do you have them handy?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

If memory serves, there were other pics as well that were a tad more "Philmontish".  

Do you have them handy?

Grrr yes... as handy as your White Course thread, that is...

;-)

12th Hole:


13th Hole:


16th Hole:


As the photos show, Park's use of the shoulders and hillocks at Woodway make for some intersting angles (the tee shot on the 4th, and the second shot on the par 5 13th, especially).

Park's philosophy on Par 5s seem to be one of "zigzagging" down the hole, which creates a choice in both angles of attack and also effectively adds distance. For example, a restored 10th hole   on PSU's White Course would necessitate angular play that turns an uphill 450 yard Par 5 into an uphill 500 yard Par 5. Park used both his green contours and the contours in the fairway, in addition to the use of fairway bunkers sparingly to accomplish this. Perhaps the best example of Park's... artistic restraint... is found in the picture of Woodway's 13th hole. How many architects would be tempted to stick a bunker or two on that shoulder on the right side?

[Ulrich Mayring]

I am not yet convinced that Park did anything substantial in the US prior to 1916. Yes, he was there for some exhibiton matches and undoubtedly was asked for his opinion on the course everywhere he played. But anything he designed must have been an "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon" affair. Misquamicut may have been started this way, but for architectural purposes it must be considered a Ross course.

Perhaps someone has actual sources? I couldn't find anything. Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the list of courses he was involved with that he drew up himself.

Ulrich

[Philip Gawith]

Temple Golf Club is en route to Huntercombe from London. I have never played the course but there certainly is quite a lot of elevation change - the clubhouse sits on a hill and immediately you pass it you drop down quite steep hill.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Kyle -

1)  Thanks for posting the pictures of Woodway.  We did a bit of tree removal work on #4, #6 &#7 over the winter - all for the better.

FYI, the picture of #12 in the post is actually #13, & #13 is really #14.

Enjoy these pictures forever.  Woodway's major restoration begins on 7/23/07.

2) It's too bad Woodway only achieved a 4 on the Doak scale.  Does this mean that we have only poor ("Nothing to see here") hole designs, particularly when we were joined with Maidstone as THE two showcase designs that WP, Jr. highlighted on his promotional brochure???

Looking forward to The President's Cup at Royal Montreal (WP, Jr.)...

JWK

[Kyle Harris]

Jim,

Glad this brought you out of hiding. If Doak 4 means "I remember every shot I hit there" than that would be accurate. More Doak 6-7 territory IMO. Even with the modified holes (1, 9, etc.), the Park holes stand out for their boldness in routing and use of the terrain. Thankfully, Woodway is blessed with a superintendent intent on preserving both the documentation and design of the golf course.

Thanks for the corrections, I didn't check what I was typing. Unfortunately my picture of 11 is on one of my backup disks that has been packed away in the various moves I've been making over the past year.

What sort of restoration work is being done? Tree removal? As I recall, the majority of the greens are pretty well preserved.

[Michael Moore]

Kyle -

Do you know anything about Willie Park, Jr.'s involvement with the design and construction of the course in Castine, ME ?

[Kyle Harris]

Michael,

Based on the history of the club that you sent me, Park's involvement was a 4 day visit in 1921 that convinced the club to build 18 holes instead of 9. After the visit Park prepared the plans and mailed them to the club, where construction began in 1922 and was completed sometime in 1924, with a visit from Mungo Park in 1923. The history notes that Park was impressed enough with the land to convince the club to build a full 18.

Castine, at the time, was in something of a financial bind, so the work progressed slowly but surely. The club spent almost $1000 on the visits from both Willie and Mungo.

From what I've heard, Castine still has those plans.

[Mike_Cirba]

I am not yet convinced that Park did anything substantial in the US prior to 1916. Yes, he was there for some exhibiton matches and undoubtedly was asked for his opinion on the course everywhere he played. But anything he designed must have been an "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon" affair. Misquamicut may have been started this way, but for architectural purposes it must be considered a Ross course.

Perhaps someone has actual sources? I couldn't find anything. Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the list of courses he was involved with that he drew up himself.

Ulrich

Hi Ulrich,

That may well be, but we know at minimum that prior to 1900, Park was credited with the expansion to 18/revision of the original nine holes at Atlantic City CC, which was a major course in those days.

We also know that he designed the first 18 hole course at Knollwood in Westchester County, NY, which is arguably the site where golf has been played the longest in this country.  These folks were very much the movers and shakers of late 19th century America.

In that regard, was far as being connected, we also know that he built the first nine at Misquamicut, and records suggest that he was responsible with member Adrian Larkin for expanding Maidstone to a full 18 at the time.

Given the deep pockets and work ethic of these who's who of turn of the century industrialists, I imagine the work involved was a bit more than the 18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon approach, but who's to tell?

[Kyle Harris]

[Andy Levett]

Those pics of mighty Silloth at the top of the thread are indeed the real deal, but do we know that those holes are attributable to Willie Park Jr, or his predecessor Willie Grant, or the post-Park work of Dr MacKenzie, or in whole or in part, some anonymous committee?
Ran says the club history is vague.
Extrapolate these doubts across every course in the WP Jr canon and it becomes hard to distinguish between the genius and the journeyman.

[Kyle Harris]

Andy,

There are very few doubts of Park's work at Woodway, Penn State White, a majority of Glen Ridge or Maidstone. I'd say it's safe to be able to distinguish from Park's work and the work of others, as well, as the green sites and bunkering Park did have some very distinctive features that alone, may indicate another architect, but together typically point to Park.

[Andy Levett]

Andy,

There are very few doubts of Park's work at Woodway, Penn State White, a majority of Glen Ridge or Maidstone. I'd say it's safe to be able to distinguish from Park's work and the work of others, as well, as the green sites and bunkering Park did have some very distinctive features that alone, may indicate another architect, but together typically point to Park.

I can't argue with you on those Kyle, and I know people like you in America have done the research.
But I'm just a bit wary of a lazy attribution of x hole on y course to z. Silloth's arguably the best course in England and it deserves more forensic investigation than 'Grant was an old guy, MacK just visited on a day return, let's give it to Park')

[Kyle Harris]

Andy,

I certainly can understand that, and I apologize for seeing your remarks as categorical. Unfortunately, Park seems to be subject to a lot of this sort of ambiguity as he did not have the consistency of "brand" that a Ross had, nor the dirth of published works that a Tillinghast had, nor a granddaughter like Flynn...

As a result, a lot of Park attributions come out of the omissions of other architects. A number of people are working to prove what we already "know" to be: That Willie Park, Jr. design Philmont's North course and not William Flynn, for example. Park is currently given credit for the South Course, which was built at a time when Park was still in England! However, no archival evidence exists to attribute the course to Flynn and that apparently stands as the only course credited to Flynn that has no such evidence.

However, Park does take credit for one of the courses at Philmont, and a number of the architectural features on the North Course match those of Park's.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Kyle, many thanks for posting Willie's list. So, neither of the US courses attributed to him prior to 1900 are on it. Woodway is featured prominently, but it was from 1916. Maidstone was 1922. Maybe he paid a visit to Maidstone prior to 1900 as well, but I found no references to it ever being called a Willie Park course at that time.

He does list some of his early work, but it is all European. For example Silloth (1892), Larne (1895), Bruntsfield, Burntisland or Dieppe (all 1897).

Ulrich

[Ulrich Mayring]

Just found an interesting quote from Tillinghast, 1917, where Tilly answers to J. H. Taylor, who was criticizing modern golf architecture in the US:

That great golfer of the old "Guttie" days, Willie Park, boldly asserts that he is a modern Golf architect. Surely Taylor cannot conceive of Park building or condoning absurdities. Yet Park declares that he is astounded by the progress of modern golf architecture in America. He played our old courses years ago, and he sees with his own eyes today.

I would think that an architect of Tillinghast's stature would have known if Willie Park had designed any courses during his first visit and, perhaps, would be responsible for some of the "bad old courses" that Taylor played during his US visits.

Ulrich

[Kyle Harris]

Ulrich,

In the absence of any archival evidence of Park doing architecture work, and the relatively high amount of publicity his "barnstorming" tour of the US had in terms of where and whom he was playing in matches, I doubt Park did much, if any, work in the U.S. prior to his moving here in 1915. There are records of his making suggestions as he played a course, but surely not of the level of sophistication of his permanent office in New York 20 years later.

Just my opinion, but his first visit was at the tail end of his playing career, and that seemed to be the focus of this trip.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Kyle

Why is it then that Philmont North is not listed on Park's business card of 1922 as one of his planned courses?

Philmont has now credited John Reid to the South and, in their centennial book written by Bob Labbance, hypothesizes that Flynn must have done the detail work at North as Gordon, T&F's construction manager then, appeared in photos of the course's opening after a routing done by Park given Park's illness after construction was started in 1923 or so. Needless to say, the highly unusual fact that no Flynn drawings were found of Philmont in the Flynn barn or no records exist at Philmont indicating Flynn had any involvement with North were apparently overlooked in coming to their hypothesis.

[Kyle Harris]

Steve,

Look a little closer in the middle column, Philmont is listed, right above Glen Ridge CC - just not as the North Course. As Park was not in the US in 1908 when the South Course was built, I think it's 99% safe to say this implies the North Course.

Glad to hear they credited the South Course to John Reid. There has been speculation that Toomey & Flynn may have built Philmont North off of Park's plans. The person to track down is Mungo Park and figure out what he is doing at the time, because during that time he was doing a lot of his brother's leg work, including Penn State and Maidstone.

Park's illness was unfortunate and he was beginning to show signs of Schizophrenia and Depression after 1922. Understandable considering the amount of work he did in a relatively short timespan (the entire center column would have been designed in the span from 1915-1923). He began showing up at work sites that had already been completed among other odd behaviors and Mungo Park ultimately took over his American Office and carried out his plans before taking him back to Musselburgh for the remainder of his life.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Kyle

Ooops....I missed that. I don't remember if Labbance did too.

Mungo Park, the grand nephew of Willie Park Jr.- is he still alive?

An Informed Comment, 11 Nov 2005
By    Walter Stephen (Edinburgh, Scotland) - See all my reviews
Mungo Park, grand-nephew of Willie Park, has written this review for the journal of the British Golf Collectors' Society:
Book review -. ‘Willie Park Junior –The Man who took Golf to the World’
Published by Luath Press 2005

Walter Stephen has written a charming and whimsical book. ‘Willie Park Junior –The Man who took Golf to the World’ is a broad critique, which extends beyond the limited biography of Willie’s life. It pieces in the places, events and times that surrounded him, and offers the reader a contextual picture of the man and his work, before examining hole by hole, some of the courses associated with him.

Mr Stephen’s book invites analogies. Like a good meal, interesting wine, jazz; it demands the attention and interaction of the reader in developing its themes. These are explored in a structure that evolves rather than dictates, and which is further enriched on re-reading. In two parts, the book examines the life and times, and then the legacy of Willie Park Jnr.

In a wide sweep, the first part of the book takes in local knowledge and reminiscence of Musselburgh, its links, and golfing history. But it extends further to include geology and its affects on landscape, social and economic history, politics, philosophy, urban design, literature and much more. At times the clarity of the argument seems in danger of being lost in a tangle of different topics, with John Updike and A P Herbert rubbing shoulders with Carlyle. But Mr Stephen plays fondly and adeptly with language, and manages to gather in the many threads, to weave a narrative that portrays the richness and excitement of golf’s transitional period. At times the language is Darwinian, at times pure Wodehouse, as when describing the last hole at Turnhouse, ‘I showed my unfitness for the big occasion by hewing my way wastefully towards the green as my follower’s blood pressure rose’. I can forgive an author a good deal, who can make me chuckle at his turn of phrase.

It seems that there is much of Walter Stephen in this book. It is witty and erudite, occasionally whimsical, often inspiring. For the high handicap golfer the book’s structure is a recognisable friend. Not for us the carefully devised and clinically executed journey from tee to green, but a more chaotic approach, often enriching and usually enjoyable; always interesting. Mr Stephen has reproduced some of this structure in prose, making pertinent connections to areas not normally enjoyed in golf writing. His book is a good walk (sometimes a romp) through some rare historical landscapes; in this case ‘a good walk, bettered’.

[Kyle Harris]

Steve,

I'm guessing Mungo is family name. The one to whom I am referring was Willie's brother.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ulrich,

The Park advertisement does mention Atlantic City CC, which he had done completed prior to 1900.


Also, I thought the following link to a 1917 "American Golfer" article was an interesting assessment;  (please see pages 347, 357, and 358)

If anyone knows how to copy it directly onto the page here, your assistance is appreciated;

http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1917/ag175e.pdf#xml=http://www.aafla.org:8080/verity_templates/jsp/search/xmlread.jsp?k2dockey=/mnt/docs/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1917/ag175e.pdf@aafla_pdf&serverSpec=localhost:9900&querytext=Berwick

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Try this:

http://tinyurl.com/2j79j2

[Tony_Muldoon]

Kyle

Ooops....I missed that. I don't remember if Labbance did too.

Mungo Park, the grand nephew of Willie Park Jr.- is he still alive?

An Informed Comment, 11 Nov 2005
By    Walter Stephen (Edinburgh, Scotland) - See all my reviews
Mungo Park, grand-nephew of Willie Park, has written this review for the journal of the British Golf Collectors' Society:
Book review -. ‘Willie Park Junior –The Man who took Golf to the World’
Published by Luath Press 2005

Walter Stephen has written a charming and whimsical book. ‘Willie Park Junior –The Man who took Golf to the World’ is a broad critique, which extends beyond the limited biography of Willie’s life. It pieces in the places, events and times that surrounded him, and offers the reader a contextual picture of the man and his work, before examining hole by hole, some of the courses associated with him.

Mr Stephen’s book invites analogies. Like a good meal, interesting wine, jazz; it demands the attention and interaction of the reader in developing its themes. These are explored in a structure that evolves rather than dictates, and which is further enriched on re-reading. In two parts, the book examines the life and times, and then the legacy of Willie Park Jnr.

In a wide sweep, the first part of the book takes in local knowledge and reminiscence of Musselburgh, its links, and golfing history. But it extends further to include geology and its affects on landscape, social and economic history, politics, philosophy, urban design, literature and much more. At times the clarity of the argument seems in danger of being lost in a tangle of different topics, with John Updike and A P Herbert rubbing shoulders with Carlyle. But Mr Stephen plays fondly and adeptly with language, and manages to gather in the many threads, to weave a narrative that portrays the richness and excitement of golf’s transitional period. At times the language is Darwinian, at times pure Wodehouse, as when describing the last hole at Turnhouse, ‘I showed my unfitness for the big occasion by hewing my way wastefully towards the green as my follower’s blood pressure rose’. I can forgive an author a good deal, who can make me chuckle at his turn of phrase.

It seems that there is much of Walter Stephen in this book. It is witty and erudite, occasionally whimsical, often inspiring. For the high handicap golfer the book’s structure is a recognisable friend. Not for us the carefully devised and clinically executed journey from tee to green, but a more chaotic approach, often enriching and usually enjoyable; always interesting. Mr Stephen has reproduced some of this structure in prose, making pertinent connections to areas not normally enjoyed in golf writing. His book is a good walk (sometimes a romp) through some rare historical landscapes; in this case ‘a good walk, bettered’.

Steve I have the book but I can't recomend it  He does virtually no original research that I can detect and even describes Portstewart as if nothing had changed in a century.

I have passed it on to another here who may have found more worth in it.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Even though all the criticism is valid, I still liked the book, because it paints a good picture of who Willie Park was, how his courses play and the times he lived in. The inaccuracies are easy to spot, so it doesn't mislead too much. But I feel that the book put Willie in the right place.

Ulrich

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