Willie Park Jr. - More documentation that he was the Father of Inland Naturalism

[Mark Pearce]

Notts isn't under rated by me.  It's a fantastic course and its low profile makes it very reasonably priced, too.  IMHO it's up there with Woodall Spa, Alwoodley and Ganton amongst English inland courses.

[Ulrich Mayring]

There are some mysteries about Willie Park junior: when exactly did he design which course? Was Notts before or after Sunningdale - perhaps even during? Or how about Golf de la Boulie near Versailles? It is listed as 1901 as well. What exactly did Willie do at Solway on Silloth in 1892? Could that be his first great course? Or what about Larne (1895), Burntisland (1897) und Bruntsfield (1897)?

We simply do not know enough, so Sunningdale is perhaps our safest bet for a breakthrough effort ushering in the Golden Age.

In a couple of weeks I hope to play Dieppe (1897), perhaps that will provide more insight, as that course is supposed to be largely preserved.

Ulrich

[Ed Tilley]

From 145 yards;



From 200 yards;



From 220...;

Silloth?

Holes 9, 16, and 13 respectively at Silloth.

[Ulrich Mayring]

The point I was trying to make is that the breakthrough attained at Sunningdale was not necessarily one of architecture, but one for architecture

But the main point is not that Park somehow single-handedly invented Golf architecture - Colt and MacKenzie did more in this regard. But, as far as I know, Park was the first architect to think of the design and building of a course in terms of a larger project and trying what was previously deemed impossible.

In other words, Park put an end to "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon". Of course I may be wrong and there are other massive, multi-year efforts before Sunningdale?

Ulrich

[Mike_Cirba]

My point isn't that he was the first in Great Britain to build courses that were natural extensions of their surrounds (although he very well may have been), but that he was the first to export this revolutionary style to America.  

[JMorgan]

Mike:

Reread C&W's Part One about the significance of Park Jr to golf course architecture.

That self-serving revisionist Tom MacWood used to snicker at my mention of the credibilty of C&W's "Architects of Golf", particularly as it related to Park Jr. MacWood didn't have much of a clue in how to put the truth of most of this history together. All he was doing was trying to make a name for himself as some 'expert' researcher by throwing obscure info out there and then making some point about the influence of Hutchinson and the A/C Movement. Apparently he didn't think anyone would bother to check the inaccuracy of his claims and agenda.

Mike,

If I'd been awake when you posted that picture... well, enough.  Good stuff.    Park Jr. deserves a volume.

When did Park Jr. do the Berkshire 9 in Reading?  

Tom Paul,

C&W have much of Dev Emmet's family history wrong, along with other course related errors, all of which gets repeated on every website and in other books, so don't believe everything you read.  I just hope no one is footnoting you re: his sexuality, unless you were at Stanford White's parties and know something inquiring minds want to know....

[Ulrich Mayring]

Links courses don't count for this inland revolution

My point is that Golf courses were at that time only built, where the land was suitable and already prepared. Large earth moving, elaborate clearing of trees, heath etc. was out. Therefore the only good courses were those built on the coast, where the natural links land did provide undulations and decent playing conditions without the need for much construction work.

Inland, however, that meant that courses were boring, as they were confined to flat and uninspiring terrain, often previously used for agriculture.

but that he was the first to export this revolutionary style to America

Another unclear situation. Was it Park or Donald Ross? Park was in the US first, but did he design any courses then? I don't know any Park designs in the US prior to 1916.

Ulrich

[Ulrich Mayring]

There was not as much to be done at Huntercombe, they started after Sunningdale and finished earlier.

I'm looking forward to playing Dieppe, it's a clifftop affair and from looking at some pictures it could be considered an inland course.

Ulrich

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

If I'd been awake when you posted that picture... well, enough.  Good stuff.    Park Jr. deserves a volume.

When did Park Jr. do the Berkshire 9 in Reading?  

J,

I have the design history of Berkshire at home so I'll post it this evening.  

Sadly, although it's 15 minutes from my house I've never seen it or played there.  

Ulrich,

Willie Park designed a number of early American courses prior to 1915, including the early Misquamicut in 1895.

[mark chalfant]

Mike
this is a cool post. do you  know if the nine holes   Willie did @ Misquamicut are still  in place.  if so,  are they  the current  #1-#9  in the routing. what are the courses pictured  in your "reply 11'
thanks

[Mike_Cirba]

JMorgan,

The design history of Berkshire Country Club in Reading, PA;

John Reid built the first nine in 1902.   He's the same John Reid who did the first course at Atlantic City with HJ Tweedie, and a whole bunch of other courses in PA in NJ at the turn of the century, mostly nine-holers.  At one point he was the Super at Atlantic City, and then went to Huntingdon Valley.

In 1918, Willie Park Jr. substantially revised four of Reid's holes and added a new nine.   This is largely the 18 hole course that exists today.

In 1929, Donald Ross revised one hole.

I can't tell you hole specifics because I haven't been there yet.   All of the info is through research.


Mark C.,

The course in post 11 is a place in the UK called Temple Golf Club.  

I've never heard of it, much less played it, but it came up during a search for Park and it looks delightful.

[Paul_Turner]

Mike

I can think of the two original blind par 3s at Sunningdale, the 8th and 13th, which were certainly regarded as poor by the critics of the time (Darwin...).

Of course they may have been wrong and we'd have loved them!

I haven't played Temple but yeah it looks great.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike

I can think of the two original blind[/i] par 3s at Sunningdale, the 8th and 13th, which were certainly regarded as poor by the critics of the time (Darwin...).

Of course they may have been wrong and we'd have loved them!

Paul,

Some people don't like the mostly blind par three 8th hole at Maidstone, but you and I know that they're simply daft!    

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Very glad you started this thread. Willie Park doesn't get enough attention - especially his green designs.

More PSU White:

The 8th Hole from what should be the right center of the fairway:


11th Green with green reduction and abandoned bunker. Again, this should be the right-center of the fairway.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

It's been a long time coming.

I should also mention that Kyle and I are 98.9% sure that Willie Park Jr. did the first nine holes at Schuylkill Country Club near Pottsville, PA in the early 20s, but haven't been able to find the smoking gun yet.

Mark C.,

Here's the link to Temple;

http://www.templegolfclub.co.uk/images/TheCourse/coursehistory.htm

[Paul_Turner]

Mike

I really pleased you directed me to Temple.  I'd heard of it and knew it was an old club,  but I had no idea that it was on such good looking terrain.  I'd pictured something pretty flat for some reason.  That blind green in the dell is a corker!

And it looks like they've kept the trees in check in the main too.

PS

Al lot if Sunn Old is Colt.  The general routing of the course is Parks,  but Colt moved several greens and redid perhaps all of them (certainly most).  I think the bunkers etc are mostly Colt too;  definitely those of the 17th in that black and white pic.

[Mike_Cirba]

Paul,

Glad to be of service!  

[Kyle Harris]

Here's the 11th on the White Course again... looking down what should be the centerline of the hole:



Some Schuylkill CC pics:

5th Hole from old (Park?) Tee:



17th Green:



18th Approach:



I'll also dig up some Glen Ridge and Woodway pictures.

[JMorgan]

Mike,

That's kind of what I thought re: Berkshire, though I thought Willie had redone all 18.  I knew he had designed the second nine.

BCC is an odd place, and I'll leave it at that.  (I was fourteen or fifteen when I played it, however, so things may have changed quite a bit.)  

[TEPaul]

I'm looking for the first evidence of the "dished" bunker style in America.

Was it Park? Was it Hugh Wilson? Or was it perhaps Herbert Leeds or even Alex Findlay?

[Mike_Cirba]

JMorgan,

Thanks...I hope to get over there this year and see what Park is evident.

Tom Paul,

It might be interesting to look up old pics of Knollwood CC in Westchester County, NY.   Park (with member Lawrence Van Etten) built the first 18 there sometime between 1894 and 1896, and I'd love to see what the bunkering looked like.

Interestingly, in 1900 the amateur course record of 73 was held by a Walter Paul.   Any relation?

Kyle,

I wish I had pics of Philmont North to compare to Woodway.

Anyone who's played the former will recognize some distinct similarities.

[Mike_Cirba]

Some additional info from Deal Country Club's (NJ) history;

"The original course was a nine hole layout consisting of the current 1st, 2nd, and 12th through 18th holes designed by Lawrence Van Etten in 1895. Van Etten was a prominent civil engineer from West Chester New York and is also credited with the original designs of Knollwood and Wykagyl Country Clubs. An accomplished player, he was known at the time as the best player at Knollwood and played regularly to “scratch” in local events. Club history at Knollwood has confirmed that Van Etten consulted with the great Scottish professional Willie Park Jr. on the original designs of both Knollwood and Wykagyl. Park came to America during the early 1890’s to play in a series of exhibition matches and to finalize plans for courses he would later design, over 170 worldwide. This leads some to speculate that Park may have had some influence over Deal’s original nine hole layout."

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike

When the pictures of Woodway were posted here before, I think the Philmont Flynn advocates were taken back as their major argument has always been that North "looks like a Flynn."

I await their reposting.

[Michael Christensen]

being a member of a wp jr club....of course not!  we are very proud at new haven to be associated with Mr Park...I believe we have the biggest greens of any course he did in the USA

[Kyle Harris]

Steve, you twisted my arm.

The 4th Hole, Woodway


The 4th green:


The 6th Tee Shot, "Flynn" look, eh?


The 6th approach:


A series of 7th hole shots, from the tee, half way down the fairway, and looking back toward the tee:




Woodway, while possessing some GREAT Park greens is really a study in how good Park was at everything else. From what I've seen, Philmont North is indicative of this as well.

Unfortunately, the holes Park routed over the more interesting terrain at PSU White were the holes that were lost, but his touch with a routing can still be seen.

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