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Mike_Cirba



When we speak of the "Golden Age", as well as the modern "Renaissance", we should probably all say a silent "thank you", because he started it all.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 12:31:06 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2007, 11:16:37 PM »
Well, the guy has a nice suit jacket, a nice bowtie and a nice slicked down haircut but that aside would you mind tell us all who in the hell he is?  ;)

If it's Devie boy, I'll be glad to reconsider your initial post--eg obviously golf architecture is looking to find some theme for the future and "gay" architecture just might be it.

There's no question in my mind that Devereaux's architecture was remarkably sensitive.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 11:21:35 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2007, 11:19:27 PM »
Mike,
I could name a boring one or two, but not when taken in the context of the whole course.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Cirba

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2007, 11:20:29 PM »
Well, the guy has a nice suit jacket, a nice bowtie and a nice slicked down haircut but that aside would you mind tell us all who in the hell he is?  ;)

Tom,

He's pretty spiffy, isn't he?

I'm sure our buddy Dev would approve.

Seriously, I think I'm ready to argue that he's the guy who deserves the most credit for taking the inland game from the geometric, cross-bunker, steeplechase game to a very natural, strategic, and inviting game quicker and with more long-term influence than anyone in history, including CB Macdonald.

Tom Paul,

His architecture probably wasn't as sensitive as Emmett's, but whose really was?   ;D
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 11:24:03 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2007, 11:30:39 PM »
"Seriously, I think I'm ready to argue that he's the guy who deserves the most credit for taking the inland game from the geometric, cross-bunker, steeplechase game to a very natural, strategic, and inviting game quicker and with more long-term influence than anyone in history, including CB Macdonald."

MikeC:

Seriously indeed. I've been thinking about this for well over two years now. Some of this has been precipitated by this USGA architecture archive thing but somebody in America made a breakthrough in INLAND (manufactured) golf architecture from the rudimentary geometric stuff to a more naturalized adaptation.

The only possible candidates I've been able to think of that early who may've done that are either Emmet, Leeds or Wilson. It sure wasn't Macdonald.

And I've checked this out and Emmet, Leeds and Wilson were all familiar with the English heathlands before their projects. I think that definitely tells us something very important about the more naturalized style of the first really good "naturalized" INLAND architecture in America.

Somebody started it over here and the only question is who.

There's no sense in carrying on a guessing game here. Who is the fellow in that photo?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 11:32:34 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2007, 11:32:30 PM »
From 145 yards;



From 200 yards;



From 220...;


Mike_Cirba

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2007, 11:38:58 PM »
Tom,

I agree.

Turning to America, if there's anything more natural or more revolutionary than this, I'll eat my hat.



Matt may think this course is overrated, but GMAFB! :'(



Isn't this what everyone from Tom Fazio to Tom Doak is looking to achieve 80 years on?

Phil McDade

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2007, 11:40:09 PM »
That's a links course, although I think he also designed parkland courses as well.

I don't think this was his maiden venture in architecture, however.

Have I got it?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2007, 11:48:24 PM »
Phil,

Yes, his style translated quite nimbly inland, as well, as is evidenced by a few frames below;



« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 11:48:48 PM by MikeCirba »

Phil McDade

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2007, 11:57:56 PM »
Mike:

I got it; figured my first reply indicated I knew who it was (hints here and there....)

There is an older course review around here somewhere of one of his lesser-known efforts in the UK. Kyle Harris likes one of his (altered) inland US courses in a place not known for its ordinary Joes (a place I really first began to appreciate golf architecture). I used to live less than a mile from that last picture.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 12:00:44 AM by Phil McDade »

TEPaul

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2007, 11:59:34 PM »
Come on Mike, from about 6am on for the next five days I'll be gone. Who is this guy? From the photos you have an excellent point.

All I need to know is who he is and how early he did work in America that looked like those photos above.

If it's earlier over here than either Emmet's GCGC, Leed's Myopia or Wilson's Merion East, you have a helluva point here.

Forget about Macdonald and what he said about how good Chicago GC was back in that early day, at least as far as a natural inland look was concerned. It wasn't.

Who is this guy and what were his earliest American courses, particularly INLAND?

Is it Willie Anderson? If it is I don't know anything about him or what he did over here INLAND or how early or what it looked like.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 12:01:09 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2007, 11:59:49 PM »





C. Squier

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2007, 12:00:17 AM »
Here's another clue:

His old man and uncle won the Open Championship.....as did he.  

CPS

Mike_Cirba

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2007, 12:04:31 AM »




« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 12:04:55 AM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2007, 12:06:39 AM »
Tom,

This fellow designed the first nine holes at Misquamicut, as well as the last 18 holes at Philmont.

Why we don't have a sacrificial altar to him here on golfclubatlas is beyond me because he's the avatar.

Phil McDade

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2007, 12:08:40 AM »
TEPaul:

Sorry this has you tied up in knots; I'd be flabbergasted if you hadn't been to, or at least seen, a certain pigskin sporting venue near Mike's photos posted in Reply #8.


Phil McDade

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2007, 12:13:15 AM »
I wonder if Kavanaugh will think this thread is over-rated or under-rated?

TEPaul

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2007, 12:24:32 AM »
"Tom,
This fellow designed the first nine holes at Misquamicut, as well as the last 18 holes at Philmont."

Mike:

In my opinion, WIllie Park Jr maybe the most important person in the evolution of golf course architecture since he may've been the first to design good relatively natural looking INLAND architecture (outside Scotland) in history. But I don't know that he was the first to do it over here. I think he certainly was, however, in the English heathlands around 1900, and that puts him in a most important place in the history of GCA, in my opinion, particularly since what he did in the heathlands was what the likes of Leeds, Emmet and Wilson saw before they did their breakthrough projects over here.

I've always thought Park Jr may've been the man and that's one of the reasons I always thought that Tom MacWood giving all the credit for what Park did in the heathlands to Horace Hutchinson and the English Arts and Crafts Movement was basically a load of crap.

I cannot imagine that it took some tutelage from Hutchinson and the A&C Movement to teach Scottish linksman Park Jr what to do inland. All that was required was for him to slow down, to have the money and to take the necessary time on some inland sites. And that was Sunningdale and Huntercombe.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 12:27:45 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2007, 12:31:11 AM »
Tom,

I'm not exactly sure that he was the first to do it over here either, but from the Maidstone history it seems he was a prime candidate, with at least some significant impact to that course prior to 1900.

Beyond that, his inland heathland examples in Great Britain had to serve as an inspiration to Macdonald, Wilson, and even Colt and Hutchinson.

Others may have written about it much better, but Park did it in the dirt.

TEPaul

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2007, 12:40:06 AM »
Mike:

Reread C&W's Part One about the significance of Park Jr to golf course architecture.

That self-serving revisionist Tom MacWood used to snicker at my mention of the credibilty of C&W's "Architects of Golf", particularly as it related to Park Jr. MacWood didn't have much of a clue in how to put the truth of most of this history together. All he was doing was trying to make a name for himself as some 'expert' researcher ;) by throwing obscure info out there and then making some point about the influence of Hutchinson and the A/C Movement. Apparently he didn't think anyone would bother to check the inaccuracy of his claims and agenda.

Ulrich Mayring

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2007, 04:50:41 AM »
Hutchinson was important as one of the first "name" Golf journalists. Previously whoever wrote about Golf (and there were not many) had his own agenda and didn't write regularly. Golf architecture was not deemed to be something to write about, as it largely didn't exist in the minds of people. Hutchinson and later Darwin were the ones, who brought mainstream awareness to Golf architecture.

As far as architects go, a case could be made for Willie Park junior to have started the Golden Age with his efforts at Sunningdale and Huntercombe. The architectural brilliance of Sunningdale, as we see it today, is partly due to Colt's reworking it in his time as the club's secretary. But the main point is not that Park somehow single-handedly invented Golf architecture - Colt and MacKenzie did more in this regard. But, as far as I know, Park was the first architect to think of the design and building of a course in terms of a larger project and trying what was previously deemed impossible.

Before Willie Park junior people looked at something like the Surrey heath and said: impossible to build a Golf course here. One of the reasons why inland courses were so dull in the 19th century is that they were built on "suitable land". Flat and uninspiring terrain, but easy to stake out some fairways on it.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Philip Gawith

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2007, 05:12:01 AM »
Mike - the picture is a bit confusing! I am sure in most pictures I have seen of WP Jr he has a moustache?

BTW - GMBF is playing Huntercombe in October so it will be interesting to see what he makes of the course. No bad holes in my view!

Ulrich Mayring

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2007, 05:26:02 AM »
Huntercombe actually opened a couple of months before Sunningdale, even though it was started later. But I think the first course in the heathlands was Woking. The infamous incident, where John L. Low and Stuart Paton put in the center line bunker and thereby invented strategic design, took place around 1904(?). I don't know about the architectural merits of the course before then.

I second your opinion about Fowler being early out of the gates and would like to add that J. F. Abercromby came shortly after and is also often neglected.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 05:27:36 AM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

wsmorrison

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2007, 05:50:43 AM »
How about the 9th at Philmont North?  Mike, you know how good Willie Park, Jr. was.  Many on this site know as well.  Can someone please tell those knuckleheads at Philmont CC?
 ;D

Mark Pearce

Re:Can anyone name a poor golf hole designed by this man?
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2007, 06:22:08 AM »
From 145 yards;



From 200 yards;



From 220...;



Silloth?
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

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