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Tommy Williamsen

The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« on: July 15, 2007, 09:43:56 PM »
I love playing golf in the USA.  We have the most courses in the country and some of the greatest as well.  We may even have more "great" courses than there are in Britain and Ireland.  So why are they the luckiest golfers?  Beacuse with a little bit of planning they can play just about any course they want and if they want to join a club they don't have to pay and exorbitant fee.  

The weather is, well that is a different story.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2007, 10:29:59 PM »
Tommy,

Where in this country can't you or I play with a little planning...one or two clubs at most.  The best part is that we don't have to share with stupid tourists for the pleasure.  I'm not interested in socialistic sloppy seconds.

Bill Gayne

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2007, 10:44:01 PM »
Tommy,

  The best part is that we don't have to share with stupid tourists for the pleasure.  I'm not interested in socialistic sloppy seconds.

Care to elaborate further?


John Kavanaugh

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2007, 10:53:46 PM »
I think the private structure of courses in America is the best possible model.  It prevents overcrowding while still allowing play by anyone with patience and open to hard work.  The best part is that they are funded by the few members for the enjoyment of all.  The Brit model is the exact opposite..make the guests pay and let the members off a fiscal responsibility...Thus the socialistic sloppy seconds.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 10:55:53 PM by John Kavanaugh »

ed_getka

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2007, 11:42:53 PM »
JakaB,
   The American model IS the best if your goal is making golf more expensive. I don't know what the percentage is of US golfers in private clubs versus the UK and Australia/NZ, but I would guess the latter is much higher. Why? Because more golfers can afford it that's why. Yes, visitors are subsidizing the elite courses to some extent, but that cost still won't come close to what initiation fees and dues come to over here. To think of joining a private club in my area of NoCal just the initiation is exorbitant. I could practically play at Pebble Beach on a monthly basis for the rest of my life and come out ahead.
    Plus with the UK model you don't need to know the secret handshake.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2007, 08:17:52 AM »
JakaB,
   The American model IS the best if your goal is making golf more expensive. I don't know what the percentage is of US golfers in private clubs versus the UK and Australia/NZ, but I would guess the latter is much higher. Why? Because more golfers can afford it that's why. Yes, visitors are subsidizing the elite courses to some extent, but that cost still won't come close to what initiation fees and dues come to over here. To think of joining a private club in my area of NoCal just the initiation is exorbitant. I could practically play at Pebble Beach on a monthly basis for the rest of my life and come out ahead.
    Plus with the UK model you don't need to know the secret handshake.

Ed,

I seem to know two things about you...One being that you have dedicated your life to the improvement of the health of young children with little regard to capital gain and two, you have played every great course in this country that you choose.  I can't see a man in your position in B&I having the same opportunities.  Great golf is less expensive in America because members subsidize their friends instead of profiting from them.

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2007, 08:29:03 AM »
Do the Brits and Irish get residency breaks on green fees like Oregonians get at Bandon?

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2007, 08:41:47 AM »
JakaB,
   The American model IS the best if your goal is making golf more expensive. I don't know what the percentage is of US golfers in private clubs versus the UK and Australia/NZ, but I would guess the latter is much higher. Why? Because more golfers can afford it that's why. Yes, visitors are subsidizing the elite courses to some extent, but that cost still won't come close to what initiation fees and dues come to over here. To think of joining a private club in my area of NoCal just the initiation is exorbitant. I could practically play at Pebble Beach on a monthly basis for the rest of my life and come out ahead.
    Plus with the UK model you don't need to know the secret handshake.

Ed,

I seem to know two things about you...One being that you have dedicated your life to the improvement of the health of young children with little regard to capital gain and two, you have played every great course in this country that you choose.  I can't see a man in your position in B&I having the same opportunities.  Great golf is less expensive in America because members subsidize their friends instead of profiting from them.

John

Now you are really talking bollocks.  Friends in GB&I are signed at rates which are far lower than equivalent American clubs.  You ought to be ashamed for even suggesting otherwise.  It is becoming more and more clear that you need to get a passport and make a trip to GB&I.  Tony has offered a game in the heathlands and I will pay for a game at Pennard.  At this rate, you won't pay any greenfees!

Ciao

I guess I need to get a passort if for nothing else I can't even go to my beloved Mexico anymore without one.  Maybe it is just me but golf all over the world seems to be affordable if you just have the patience to get the proper invite.

David_Tepper

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2007, 08:46:29 AM »
John Kavanaugh -

You confess to never having been to GB&I, yet you are the first to respond to a thread about golf there. Talk about "blissful ignorance!"  ;)

Your assertion that any of us could play all but one or two clubs in the US with "a litttle planning" is utter nonsense.

DT  


Jim Nugent

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2007, 08:47:07 AM »
Do the Brits and Irish get residency breaks on green fees like Oregonians get at Bandon?

St. Andrews residents pay 115 pounds sterling, I believe, for a full year's pass at all courses there.  

Tom Birkert

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2007, 08:58:35 AM »
JakaB,
   The American model IS the best if your goal is making golf more expensive. I don't know what the percentage is of US golfers in private clubs versus the UK and Australia/NZ, but I would guess the latter is much higher. Why? Because more golfers can afford it that's why. Yes, visitors are subsidizing the elite courses to some extent, but that cost still won't come close to what initiation fees and dues come to over here. To think of joining a private club in my area of NoCal just the initiation is exorbitant. I could practically play at Pebble Beach on a monthly basis for the rest of my life and come out ahead.
    Plus with the UK model you don't need to know the secret handshake.

Ed,

I seem to know two things about you...One being that you have dedicated your life to the improvement of the health of young children with little regard to capital gain and two, you have played every great course in this country that you choose.  I can't see a man in your position in B&I having the same opportunities.  Great golf is less expensive in America because members subsidize their friends instead of profiting from them.

I have to jump in here... It's far easier to get on the classic, private courses in the UK than it is in the US. Many times all that is required is a simple letter from your club secretary, or even a direct and polite phone call yourself. Try that at Seminole, Augusta National or multiple other courses in the US.

Because annual subs and joining fees are lower, there is generally more outside play to raise revenues. If you are a visitor then you will normally be paying a significant amount of money (but usually not more than £150). If, however, you are playing with a Member the green fee tumbles (we charge £30 for a guest). More outside play = more opportunities to play the classic courses. Lower joining fee and lower subs = more opportunity to join a classic course.

There is no way playing the top end US courses is cheaper than doing the same in the UK. For a start, in order to belong at one of the top US courses I would imagine the majority of people will be successful businessman (or would need to be to fund the joining fee!). That certainly isn't the case here. I doubt I would be able to afford to be a Member at one of the elite US clubs, whereas here it is much more affordable.

UK clubs are far more welcoming to visitor play, and far more accommodating. I think on a month long trip - if well planned - you could probably play pretty much every classic private course in the UK (Swinley Forest could be difficult). The cost would depend on whether you knew Members at each club, but you'd have the option to choose whether you considered it good value to do so. At least you'd have the choice as to whether to pay it - in the US unless you know someone you're not getting on a lot of the classic courses.

Mark Pearce

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2007, 09:08:18 AM »
JakaB,
   The American model IS the best if your goal is making golf more expensive. I don't know what the percentage is of US golfers in private clubs versus the UK and Australia/NZ, but I would guess the latter is much higher. Why? Because more golfers can afford it that's why. Yes, visitors are subsidizing the elite courses to some extent, but that cost still won't come close to what initiation fees and dues come to over here. To think of joining a private club in my area of NoCal just the initiation is exorbitant. I could practically play at Pebble Beach on a monthly basis for the rest of my life and come out ahead.
    Plus with the UK model you don't need to know the secret handshake.

Ed,

I seem to know two things about you...One being that you have dedicated your life to the improvement of the health of young children with little regard to capital gain and two, you have played every great course in this country that you choose.  I can't see a man in your position in B&I having the same opportunities.  Great golf is less expensive in America because members subsidize their friends instead of profiting from them.

Oh dear.  It's never wise to offer an opinion based on blind ignorance.  All private clubs in the UK distinguish between visitors (unintroduced) and guests of members.  Guest green fees are typically a fraction of the visitor fee.  At my club the visitor fee is £50 per day, the guest fee is £12.  My father in law has invited me to Muirfield for the day next month.  I don't know what he'll pay but if it's more than £20 I'll be astonished.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's significantly lower.

In the UK clubs use Visitor fees to subsidise their own golf AND that of their guests and Visitor fees at the great courses are still cheaper than many public access US courses.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

wsmorrison

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2007, 09:23:11 AM »
Why should the two regions view and structure things similarly?  Different countries--different models.  I'd say they both work as they've existed for so long.  They might not work for everybody, but there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion.  Why is there a sense of entitlement to play anywhere you want to play?  

If my club proposed allowing unaccompanied guest play (sponsored by a member) at exorbitant rates so that I can save some money on yearly dues, I would vote against it, and I am not a wealthy person.  You can only play with a member.  If you know someone well enough to propose their play on your course, then you should be able to prevail upon one of your fellow members to play with them.  As far as visitors with no affiliation whatsoever, they are on their own to figure out how to garner access.  I do not understand the need to accommodate them simply because they express a desire to do so.  Since this is clearly different than the UK approach, so be it.  Vive le difference!  

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2007, 09:28:48 AM »
No, I am not ashamed of my opinion that private American golf is both affordable and easy to access.  I think we have all seen the proof by reading posts by some of the biggest clowns and social misfits I have ever known tell stories of the great courses they have seen.  (me included) I think we all know members of ANGC who came from poor backgrounds and worked their way into a position where they were asked to be a member...I see that opportunity for ever child born or placed in this country.  All it takes is patience and you will play where you desire.

I will concede that Brit and Irish golfers are indeed lucky, as we all are...but luckiest, that is debatable.

Brent Hutto

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2007, 09:42:59 AM »
So some guy who brings in a six figure income joins Augusta National. But since it turns out his family didn't have a pot to pee in when he was four years old that somehow "proves" that elite private clubs in the USA are egalitarian.

John, I forget the Latin phrase for that particular logical fallacy but I think it translates to "bullshit". If that's the best you got, maybe it's time to bow out of this thread. It's not amongh your better work.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 09:47:56 AM by Brent Hutto »

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2007, 09:47:32 AM »
Who gets in ANGC with only a six figure income?  I guess I have heard there is a local dentist, but even those guys seem to be raking it in.

Brent...I can assure you that if at a young age you make it your goal to be a member of ANGC it can be done rather easily through hard work and a bit of luck.  From what I understand it would be a lot tougher at some east coast clubs.  Please tell me what obstacles exist in this country that will keep any child from obtaining what ever they want.  Look at both Clinton and Obama as obvious examples.

I don't see any other country in the world with such opportunities.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 09:49:44 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Brent Hutto

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2007, 09:54:38 AM »
Why do you presume that there wasn't a child sitting next to Bill Clinton in fourth grade with every bit as much determination to be loved and saluted by his fellow Americans. Unfortunately patience, hard work and determination are necessary but not sufficient for success. Coming from a low SES background does not generally preclude success in this country. But saying "anyone can become rich and well connected" is not the same as saying that "everyone can become rich and well connected".

Have you seen the current movie Ratatouille, by chance?

And anyway, that's all an aside from the starting point of this thread. What about someone who wants to play golf but has no desire to join the arriviste ranks? It seems in the UK such a person can just phone the secretary at (for instance) Royal Birkdale and arrange to play there next month. To make a similar arrangement at ANGC by your reckoning takes at least half a lifetime.

Mark Pearce

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2007, 10:28:28 AM »
Why do you presume that there wasn't a child sitting next to Bill Clinton in fourth grade with every bit as much determination to be loved and saluted by his fellow Americans. Unfortunately patience, hard work and determination are necessary but not sufficient for success. Coming from a low SES background does not generally preclude success in this country. But saying "anyone can become rich and well connected" is not the same as saying that "everyone can become rich and well connected".

Have you seen the current movie Ratatouille, by chance?

And anyway, that's all an aside from the starting point of this thread. What about someone who wants to play golf but has no desire to join the arriviste ranks? It seems in the UK such a person can just phone the secretary at (for instance) Royal Birkdale and arrange to play there next month. To make a similar arrangement at ANGC by your reckoning takes at least half a lifetime.
It may take a while but according to JK it can be done rather easily.  I think he's talking about both joining ANGC and making a fortune.  I don't know the man but assume he was never poor.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2007, 10:31:09 AM »
Brent,

Why do you think it is a good thing that you can play any course you want next month, doesn't that kinda take the specialness away.  Only half a lifetime to get on ANGC...I can wait as there are thousands of other great courses that take anywhere from a month to a year.  Part of the greatness of the American private course system is the hunt and privilage of the get...I know it is petty and vain but making it through those gates sometimes just pumps a guy up a bit.

It sounds to me like the Brit and Irish systems are the ones with bias towards the rich as all it takes is money and time and you play every course you want.

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2007, 10:32:16 AM »
Mark,

I was once poor but my parents never were.  I have always been educated.

Mark Pearce

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2007, 10:38:20 AM »
Mark,

I was once poor but my parents never were.  I have always been educated.
Always educated?  Really?

It strikes me that you see golf as a sport for the privileged and like the fact that the structure of private golf in the States reflects that view.  I see golf as a game for the people.  I love to see children carrying clubs walking to and from clubs in Scotland.  I love that I can look forward to taking my sons to see and play some of the great courses.  I love that members of these great clubs get to share the privilege of playing those courses with any golfer who has the desire.

It seems golf means very different things to you and me.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Bill_McBride

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2007, 10:43:42 AM »
I remember when John "Tiger" Bernhardt was thinking about building a golf course in his hometown that would be incorporated into a village concept to get that Scottish flavor of the local course being a centerpiece of the lives of the townspeople.  That concept is far removed from the US model and it's too bad.  I thought that whole scheme was charming and could be successful.  

Unfortunately many new golf developments here are built to sell homes in exclusive gated communities and there is no interaction with the general public or what you might call "town life."

Brent Hutto

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2007, 10:53:17 AM »
Part of the greatness of the American private course system is the hunt and privilage of the get...I know it is petty and vain but making it through those gates sometimes just pumps a guy up a bit.

I think that's the crux of the difference. For me the private club exclusivity is just as offputting as the overstaffed CCFAD thing with a bunch of people standing around hoping to wipe your butt for tips. The only "specialness" I need or appreciate is provided by the golf course itself or by the person(s) hosting me. So we have a pretty irreducible disconnect in our likes and dislikes that makes it easy to understand why I agree with the thesis of this thread and you can't help but differ.

And BTW, you're far from the only person with whom I differ on these matters. Even in my own club we're somewhat split between one faction who think members like myself are some kind of parasite because we only come there to play golf and the other half who think spending money to refloor the ballroom is a unconscionable squandering of resources that ought to be reserved for golf course upkeep. I guess you either have the "club gene" or you don't.

Tom Birkert

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2007, 10:55:36 AM »
Brent,

Why do you think it is a good thing that you can play any course you want next month, doesn't that kinda take the specialness away.  Only half a lifetime to get on ANGC...I can wait as there are thousands of other great courses that take anywhere from a month to a year.  Part of the greatness of the American private course system is the hunt and privilage of the get...I know it is petty and vain but making it through those gates sometimes just pumps a guy up a bit.

It sounds to me like the Brit and Irish systems are the ones with bias towards the rich as all it takes is money and time and you play every course you want.

JakaB

I sometimes wonder if we were born on the same planet.  Your logic totally escapes me.  

Ciao

There appears to be no logic to it, that’s why! Allowing Joe Public (with a handicap certificate of 18 or better) to pay £150 to play a championship course is something that anyone can aspire to. Given the extortionate price of most things in the UK it actually offers outstanding value for money and could be afforded, at least once or twice a year, by the majority of golfers in the UK should they so wish.

The US system appears to rely on you being either wealthy or well connected enough to be a Member at an elite club, and to be the latter you tend to have to be the former (or vice versa).

How it can be argued with a straight face that the UK system is “bias towards the rich” I truly don’t know, especially if the person putting forward this argument has never actually played golf in the UK and seen how it works over here.

I’ve experienced both, and I prefer the UK model as if I was not fortunate enough to be a Member at a classic course I would at least have the opportunity to play it. Part of my preference will undoubtedly be due to habit and the norm, perhaps if I’d grown up in the US I would take the opposing side.

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Brits and Irish are the luckiest golfers
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2007, 11:06:45 AM »
I have never seen a restriction on who a member can share his course with.  I have been invited by people I have never met and invited people I have never met...It is a perfect system...and in many, many cases free to the guest.

Private clubs of any substance do not pay people to stand around and wipe your butt...many publics would be well served if they did..or at least provided proper clothing and deoderant.

I made some choices in life that have cost me the opportunity of being a member of every course I choose.  I accept that and now only belong at courses that fit my means and work ethic.  I could work harder and take more finacial risks and join more clubs but I am content where I currently stand.  Sounds perfect to me.

I would say the Brit and Irish system of getting on courses is very similar to buying a car.  There are many great cars in the market place and if you have the money you simply go buy it...people with more money buy more luxurious cars with more options.  There is no test of character, no test of driving ability or no test of status in the car community.  Money, money, money is the only factor...yuck.

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