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jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Emerging architects who deserve our encouragement?
« on: February 06, 2002, 05:15:39 PM »
During the past year I have made an effort to check out courses designed by architects whose work I had not seen previously. Overall, I have been impressed by the quality of the designs I have seen.  Maybe I am becoming a little more accepting of modern courses than before.  In most cases I saw only one course for each architect and I would never judge an architect based on only one or two courses. However, I have no problem judging individual courses. Below is a list of the first-time architect’s courses that I have played in last twelve months, listed roughly in the order that I rate the courses.

TOP 3 (no particular order)
Bobby Weed- Olde Farm
Lester George- Kinloch
Alex Campbell- Moraine

NEXT 4 (in order)
Robert Von Hagge-Boca Rio
Tom Watson-Cassique
Davis Love-Anderson Creek and Barefoot Landing
Jim Fazio-Hawk’s Nest

NEXT 4(in order)
Gary Panks/David Graham-Grandover East and West
Tim Cate-Tigers Eye
Hale Irwin- TPC at Wakefield Plantation
Mark McCumber-Osprey Cove

The three that I think have the greatest potential to create a significant body of quality work are Weed, George, and Love.  I think that we at GCA have a greater potential to influence the direction of architecture by praising and encouraging the work of emerging talented architects. We are kidding ourselves if we think we are going to have an impact on guys like Nicklaus, Fazio, Dye, and Rees.

Who have you seen lately that you would like to praise and encourage?


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2002, 05:51:53 PM »
Though Weed has been around a while, I played Glen Mills
this year, and saw enough good things on a tough site that I will definitely seek his work out in the future.  Along with him, I'd add David Horne, who built Frog Hollow and Back Creek in Middletown, Delaware. I know little about his firm (to be honest, I'm not even positive that he exclusively does courses) but he strikes me as very promising.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt Schulte

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2002, 06:04:36 PM »
John Fought

His effort at the Reserve in Aloha, OR, dare I go so fare as to compare it to Riviera or Winged Foot?  What the heck, I do compare it.  Strategically, no, he is not Tillinghast, or the good Dr., however, visually, he does some of the finest classical bunkering I've seen.

The Gallery, The Reserve, Pumpkin Ridge, redesign of Sunriver's Meadow course.  I must say, however, that I was disappointed with Washington National.

If Bandon Dunes does build an unexposed course sheltered from the wind by the trees, let ME BE THE FIRST TO NOMINATE John Fought as a great candidate with a proven track record in the area.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2002, 06:08:30 PM »
David Mclay Kidd, Todd Eckinrode, Proctor and Axeland.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2002, 06:37:56 PM »
I have experienced the raw and natural talent of Georiga's own Mike Young.

I think he understands that the true test of most of his projects is creating courses that will generate a profit for his client. An excellent businessman, gentleman and architect to be sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2002, 08:00:36 PM »
I've heard good things about the courses by Keith Foster and Jeff Brauer.  Haven't seen them and don't know the definition of "emerging".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2002, 08:29:57 PM »
Jim
Nipper Campbell has been dead for sixty years - drank himself to death if I'm not mistaken - glad to see he's making a comeback.

Is there a more talented architect than Strantz?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2002, 08:42:14 PM »
In no particular order;

Kelly Blake Moran  
Steve Smyers
David Horn (although I've since been informed that Horn's field work is actually done by a very talented young guy named Jim Miller....it sounds like another case of "Eckenrode with Gary Roger Baird" type associate situation)
Davis Love (although it's probably mostly Mark Love and Bob Spence)
Bobby Weed
Stephen Kay
Jim Engh
Bill Love
Keith Foster
Mark Mungeam
Brian Silva (does he still qualify as "young"?)
Ian Scott-Taylor
Ron Forse
Ron Prichard (an old soul who thinks young)

and, of course, Gil Hanse & Tom Doak  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ron_Kern

Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2002, 10:44:19 PM »
Well what do you know - my computer always crashes whenever I try to access a thread since the change to the board, but this time it did not.  This must be my chance to bow out of GCA

This thread comes off sounding like, "let's see, who will listen to us, God knows Tom Fazio won't, so let's pick our favorite targets."

Why wouldn't members of GCA want to encourage all "emerging architects" to do excellent work not just ones that GCA members felt _deserved_ their encouragement?  And how do you plan on influencing and encouraging these architects - I guess by praising the work that GCA members like and criticizing work that they do not?  Will this have real impact or will it just further alienate architects other than GCA's favorite sons from participating in this forum?  The marketplace is going to be a major influence on many, if not most, architects.  Golf architecture, and the game itself, has been a way of life in my family, not just a way to make money.  But many architects, I'm sure, have their eyes on a goal of fame and fortune.

The best influence this group could have is not to show favoritism to specific architects, but to discuss the game and its architecture with respect to the history, spirit and love of the greatest game.

So with this I bid Happy Trails and good golf - it has been fun, most of the time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Miller

Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2002, 03:32:20 AM »
Mike DeVries, from what i've seen of restoration work at Meadow Club Mac-Hunter 1927 and what i've heard about Kinsley Club
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2002, 05:59:52 AM »
Jim Lewis - Von Hagge began his design in career in 1955 with Dick Wilson. I don't think he can really be classified as "emerging."



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2002, 06:06:11 AM »
I haven't seen Kyle Phillips name here, and he did a tremendous job at Kingsbarns. Does anyone know what the status is of his Southern Gailes course. I, for one, am really looking forward to seeing how he follows up Kingsbarns
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2002, 06:25:11 AM »
Mike Cirba; I have had the opportunity to meet with Tom Doak and Steve Smyers and have been involved in a project with Mark Mungeam.  I concur with your views on each of them.  Has anyone worked with Dave Esler from the Chicgo area?  His work in remodelling the Glenview Club was very interesting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2002, 07:03:14 AM »
Tom and SPDB:

I know! I know that Nippy Campbell has been dead for 60 years and that Von Hagge is way past "emerging". I am guilty of confusing my point by mixing two topics in one. My list of 11 architects reflects those architects whose work I saw for the first time tihis past year, regardless of their age or reputation.

The larger point that I was making is that I encourage us to seek out the works of architects that we have seen none/little of.  It seems to me that most of the conversation on this site focuses on architects who are either dead or very well established in their careers as "big name" architects. If I understand Ron Kern correctly (He obviously didn't understand my intentions), I agree that it is presumptious for us on GCA to think that we can change the direction of architecture to suit our individual tastes. Maybe that should not even be an objective of GCA, although many seem to think we can and should.  I especially think we have little or no chance of influencing the architects we discuss most, especially the dead ones.  

I, for one, think there is merit in discovering and studying the works of architects who are likely to be the leaders of the next generation of architects. Rather than trying to influence them, It may be more productive to help promote their work and possibly even help to "introduce" them to course owners and developers who may not be aware of their talents.

I suppose the term "emerging" is a little vague. Define it anyway you like, but by any definition, I think Tom Doak and C&C have already "emerged".  My idea of an emerging architect is one who may have a regional reputation but is not known nationally or internationally. He (or she) may have designed a few courses and restored/renovated a few, but you can find architecture nuts who have played 500 courses and never seen one of his.  If 10 potential course owners scatterred geographically were seeking an architect, his name would not be on the candidate list for more than a couple of the jobs.

I can tell you that if I were building a course today and financial considerations did not dictate that I choose a big name, I would want to consider guys like Weed, George, Love, Engh, Forse, and Pritchard. The problem is that I am sure there are many others whose work I have not seen. I aim to correct that.

Meanwhile, would someone who has seen Ron Kern's work please say something nice? Maybe then he will stick with us.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Mike_Cirba

Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2002, 07:13:01 AM »
Ron Kern,

I sincerely believe that you are completely misinterpreting Jim Lewis's goal in starting this thread, and some of our goals in responding.

I think Jim feels that way too much of the discussion that takes place here centers around "name" architects.  He points out several examples of worthwhile courses he's played in the past year that were built by lesser-known designers.

I don't think any of us feel that we hold sway over any architect's final product.  If an architect already has a predisposition to a certain type of architecture, he or she may come here to check out what people are saying, or perhaps to just participate in a lively discussion, but it would be pretty silly for any of us to think that some guy is out there in the field thinking, "hmm..now...let's see what I can do to please those folks on GCA..".  We'd have to be arrogant asses to believe that, Ron.

Now, I'm sure you'll point out that Jim did say that "we have a greater potential to influence the direction of architecture" by praising good work when we see it, no matter who it might be from...known or unknown.  Perhaps that's true to some extent.  For instance, it seems that much of the discussion of architecture, even among the popular magazines, seems to have taken on more of a classically-oriented bent in the past couple of years.  Perhaps here on GCA we are part of an emerging trend, but I tend to think we're riding the wave started by others than a direct influencer on the industry.

Ron..I put together a list of names in response to Jim's query of lesser known architects who I thought merited attention based on my experiences.  Such a list is always certain to miss deserving people.  For instance, I haven't played much in the midwest, and I've never played one of your courses although I was certainly intrigued by the pictures I've seen of Purgatory on this site.  If I were in Indiana, it would be one of the courses I've certainly want to check out.

To my chagrin, I also saw later that I had left out Jeff Brauer, whose work I would check out based on a single playing experience at a course he designed.  I'm VERY sure there are others who deserve mention and recognition, and I simply counted on others here to bring their names to the table.

Instead, I compiled my list from my own personal experience, thinking that if Joe Q. Public saw my list, had any interest in my opinion, and then had the opportunity to play a course by any of those architects, then it might be worth some good for me to say so, since Joe Q. might then to check out the course when previously they might not have because they never heard of the architect.  

I don't think any of this was meant to be exclusive, Ron.

Instead, I think Jim Lewis felt, and I generally agree, that by focusing on just a few name architects here (whether we criticise or praise), we are being exclusive by default.

I think he wanted to widen the discussion simply to bring further exposure to "emerging" architects who are doing quality work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

C. Rokke

Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2002, 07:17:16 AM »
Ron-

You raise some good points, but I don't think you should
take offense to this thread. I think it's a matter of semantics. Perhaps who "deserves our encouragement"
could have been worded differently.  I took it as
a chance to name a couple guys who have made good first impressions with me. Both are not championed on GCA. And by
mentioning those two, it certainly should not have been taken as a knock on anyone else. Certainly I would not discourage anyone else.

I think there are a lot of open-minded people who contribute
here (look at Cirba's list) who want nothing more than to
experience as much good architecture as they can, no matter who creates it. There is some favoritism, but who doesn't have favorites?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2002, 07:23:45 AM »
Mike:

You captured my intent perfectly and restated better than I did.  Thanks.

We know that there are many lurkers on this site. Some may be current or potential course owners, or maybe even aspiring architects. Who knows who might be influenced by our discussion of a particular lesser known architect.

ps:  He may be well know in Europe, but Donald Steele and his associate, Tom Mackenzie, are not well know in the US. I would love to see them build a course in Pinehurst where the terrain is perfect for their Scottish style. Same can be said for David Kidd.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

BillV

Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2002, 07:25:35 AM »
The new and improved Tom Fazio?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2002, 07:32:19 AM »
I believe a few here DID have nice things to say about Kern's Purgatory, and Ron was in on it, if I remember correctly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2002, 07:33:14 AM »
I have never seen any of Ron Kern's work. I have read some positive stuff on Purgatory in Indiana. Here is a view of the Redan hole on that course:

http://store3.yimg.com/I/golfarch_1668_769764
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2002, 09:07:08 AM »
I was once a member of a Ron Kern renovation and have learned many things about him and his family since viewing this site....all good.  I have found Evil Lurkers comments to be of great value and complimentary to the point I question what ties he has to Kern.  I hope he or Evil continue to post here just due to the fact I admire anyone who has the balls to earn a living in a profession that is both underpaid and underappreciated by any measure.

There is nothing that prevents anyone of us from entering the profession besides a need for financial and ego security.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2002, 09:15:00 AM »
John
Re: Jeff Brauer - did he design Wildhorse in Davis Ca.?  If so it would be interesting to know his thoughts on management's changing of his routing, and was he involved ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_McMillan

Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2002, 09:30:42 AM »
Jim,

Interesting to see Lester George on the list.  

From what I understand, he is the original architect of Whiskey Creek in MD, and was separated from the project once Kemper Sports Management became involved, primarily because of their judgment that no-one would drive 45 minutes outside of DC to play a "Lester George" course - his name wasn't big enough for marketing purposes.

Some of his original routing was used for Whiskey Creek, but from what I've seen, it was not inspired.  What of his work did you see, and what about it impressed you enough to place him in your top 3?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2002, 09:31:57 AM »
Just like the trouble of listing best new course, listing emerging archies will most likely have the flaw of omitting someone that should, or feels like he/she should have been mentioned.  I think of the situation with Kingsley Club not being on best new list as similar.  I think Cirba and Lewis did explain the situation well, and probably reflect most of the regular posters sentiments about just trying to say something to pass along encouragement to lesser known work-a-day archies and design/builders to keep at it and seek quality results based on great golf qualities rather than superficial pizzazz.

One thing about many of us who participate here is the simple reality that in a good year we may get to see 10-15 courses that we hadn't seen before.  Some are new courses, some old ones that were on our 'must see' list that we finally got a chance to play.  Given that limitted universe of experiences, we might get enamored with a particular archie that we would like to call attention to.  Not so much to say he is better than someone else specifically, but that he is one of the best we have seen recently, and others might want to consider an opportunity to sample the work and see for themselves, if they value our opinion based on other stuff we might have written.  Likewise, I don't think it is beyond propriety to say if you think something stinks  >:(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Emerging architects who deserve our encouragem
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2002, 09:41:40 AM »
John,
     I remember Doak stating on here a little while ago that he was also an original choice for Whiskey Creek, but didn't get the job for possibly the same reason as you give, plus the owners wanted a hand in the design, as Doak didn't want that.  Feel free to correct me if needed, Tom, if you read this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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