Tell me about when you were a high handicapper

[George Pazin]

A few weeks/months ago, someone posted a remark from Gary Player that Jack is the best designer because he started as a high handicapper so he understands them, and then developed all the way to the best player ever (his words, not mine ), so he understands the top players as well.

Most architects, I would guess, experienced similar evolution - albeit peaking playing-wise long before becoming the best player ever!

And yet, when I play newer courses, I can't help but think many or most modern designers don't know or remember what golf was like as a high handicapper. (I don't get this feeling when playing older courses, but that might be as much due to liability as anything else.)

So I thought further - maybe my experiences as a HH are simply atypical of those of other HHs.

So please share with me how you played the game when you were a high handicapper, and how you viewed architecture.

Has your view of the high handicapper changed since you became a better player?

[Phil McDade]

George:

I'm getting worse How do my views fit in?

[George Pazin]

 

All views are welcome on my threads, even Matt's.

[cary lichtenstein]

I think my first offical handicap was 12, but I was pretty wild then, left/right/left. So I was probably a 16 from tee to green, but always good around the greens except for sand traps.

One summer, I grabbed Gary Players book and stayed in the sand trap for about 30 days, maybe an hour or more a day. To this day, it is the very best part of my game and I love sand traps in every shape, size and form.

I perferred courses with some forgiveness off the tee and hated tree lined courses, my dislike for Medinah #3 comes from not being able to play it.

As I got older, I learnt to hit the ball right to left and now I have no trouble hitting fairways except for the ones that have trees overhanging the right side of the fairway.

I could never really bomb it, my drives go 235 in the air+ whatever bounce I get on the ground, so par 5's for me are really mostly lay up holes to 100 yards and I sand wedge in.

Also as I got older, I learnt to move the ball high, low, cuts, draws, or I have a whole repitoire of shots.

My experience of going to Scotland/Ireland 3 times game me a new understanding for the ground game and I use it where appropriate if I find the ground hard enuf.

My sand game also improved when I learnt to hit from all types of sand and lies, and not just the perfect ones. I always walk into a trap with 2 wedges, 56 and 60 and make my decisions after I feel the sand with my feet.

I must have 5 or 8 different variations of sand shots and sand wedge shots around the green, so I am pretty creative.

My preference in golf courses comes in all different varieties, from the Old Course at St. Andrews to the mountain courses with lots of evelation changes and eye candy.

I don't care for the very subtle, I like bigger movements in the land forms and I don't like repetition, something I see alot today by Rees Jones and others.

If I'm bored on the back 9, it because I saw all those same traps and stuff on the front 9.

I've lost 1 club in length with my irons, so I've gone to hybrids, they are so easy to hit, ditto with todays drivers, I'm longer and much more accurate today than probably anytime.

I'm always around a 5 handicap and most of my scores are in a pretty tight range.

[Jeff_Brauer]

So what do you want to know about my day yesterday?

[Mike_Cirba]

George,

Anyone who has played with me the past year or two can readily attest to the fact that if I'm not a high-handicapper already, I'm certainly headed that way.    

The funny thing is that I have way more fun playing golf these days than I did when I was a 2.3 index around age 32.

[Clyde Johnston]

I seriously doubt that Nicklaus was ever a "high handicapper".

Well, I've played golf all of my life so I guess if I've been a high handicapper, it was when I was young and couldn't hit it very far. My earliest recollections of a handicap are from high school when I was about a 4 to 6. In college (1970), I got down to scratch.

After college, when the real world kicked in, I couldn't play as much and it went up to 8 or 10. My highest handicap was probably about a 12 and I remember being really frustrated at the time.

My lowest in the last few years was in 2003 when my index was 2.3 but getting older and injuries quickly sent me back up to around 9. I'm back down to 6 now.

I rarely play with good players. Most of the guys I play with can't break 80 on a good day. 90 is a good score. I've learned from watching other players about the difficulties they experience on the course and that helps me as a designer. I think good players that play with good players feed off of each other and learn more about golf technique. Bad players usually play with bad players and there's not a lot to learn from.

Although I think being a good player helps you be a better designer, history has proven that that is not always true.

[Peter Pallotta]

George - neat question.
I'm still not very good, but my very high-handicap days are not that far behind me, as I took up golf with any kind of intent only about 7 years ago. I can only speak for myself, of course, but my experience as a HH is that - whether I was playing an old course or a new one - I only interfaced with the architecture in the barest/most minimal way, and didn't even realize that that was what I was doing.

I do remember, however, how excited I got when I saw that a green was open in front, so that a topped shot might still have a chance to dribble up there and give me a chance at one-putting for a double bogie.

Peter  

[Garland Bayley]

Last week I was a 20+ handicapper. Today I went to the course and discovered my index had fallen to 18.6. About a month ago I began controlling my balance and timing much better and began to shoot in the mid 80s from time to time. As I keep playing this game I learn more and more things that work for me and I expect to have the handicap keep coming down. On this site last fall, I predicted a 5 point improvement for this year and am almost there.

The thing that got me excited about getting better was a little course I played last fall in Moorpark, CA. Rustic Canyon, you may have heard of it. As wide as the fairways are, I suspect the designer Gil Hanse must be a high handicapper. Let me shoot my best score in over 1/4 century.

George,

Get the kids into college and then get out there and play golf!

[Doug Siebert]

By Gary Player's logic Tiger should be a great architect too since he was a high handicapper when he started grade school!

[Rich Goodale]

I'm on my way there, George.  I'll tell you what it's like when it happens.

[Steve Lang]

 
Hi George.. how's the family life?  Thought your Oakmont stuff was great!  When are you returning to Black Mesa, we're looking at this Sept..?

HH Life:
Locations: Ohio (NW & SW)

Occupations: kid, college student, young professional

Amount of play: kid = 2-3 x/wk during summer 1/mo rest of year, UC student (1/3wks), YUP (1/wk Apr-Oct) with one week of 2-3x/d blitz in southern Pines,NC, since 1980)

Clubs: first were mom's, used when 9-13 years old, first own set Chick Hebert McGregors age 13,.. college - heavy Haig Ultras found in garage sale for $25.. mostly homemade since 1979 in some fashion,

HH to LH to HH Life?
Older professional (..40 yrs old).. Move to TX.. play 130 x/yr from 17 index to a 5 by 41 yrs old..

clubs :first  graphite shafts in irons 1992, first custom fit in 1994 (used titleist dci's), through the TM Burner series woods.. back to steel in irons with rifle shafts 2002, cavity and forged mixed bag 2003,  everything custom fitted, always.. back to tinkering..with shaft puller 2004, fully on the dark side of tech, first mizunos 2005 ,.. confirmed techie with purchase of freq.monitor in 2006.. what's your cpm??  don't you have a spine?

last 3 years.. i don't keep score anymore, officially now a TX12 index.. all strokes are negotiable, the wind is not.. broke 80 twice last month.. but, i normally have too much fun to grind anymore.. or is it the curse of gca vs course management

so I'm coming full circle, eating my tail.. if i could just loose 75 lbs.. i.e., the belly, I could make a full turn again.. and wouldn't be a HH for another 10 yrs with current tech stuff..

[Eric_Terhorst]

And yet, when I play newer courses, I can't help but think many or most modern designers don't know or remember what golf was like as a high handicapper.

So please share with me how you played the game when you were a high handicapper, and how you viewed architecture.

George, I have to disagree with your statement about modern designers, as I recently played C&C's brand-new Saguaro, and thought it would be great for golfers of any level.  And Tom Doak is quoted  in one of his interviews on this site as wanting people to think of his courses as "fun" above all.

Your question made me think of my experience playing Langford's Spring Valley and Pete Dye's Blackwolf Run River course in successive weeks.  At the former, there are wide fairways, difficult par 3s, a bunch of half-par holes, tricky sloped greens, and rewards for getting in the right spots off the tee.  But it's considered "easy" by authorities, as it carries only a 119 slope.  On that par 70 (6354 yds), I recently shot 79 and thought I was ready for the River.  

Well, as we all know the golf gods pay attention to such hubris The River course I played was about 6600 yards, slope 139.  
Though I drove the ball well at at the River, I lost my ability to hit a fearless wedge shot, and was 11 over par with wedge in my hands on 5 holes.  The super-fast greens (as Michael Kennedy pointed out to me) have 4 or 5 greens-within-the-greens and severely intimidated me, and I three-putted 5 or 6 holes and 4-putted one, and ended up barely breaking 100.  My fragile confidence in my putting stroke is still damaged. Nevertheless, playing the River for the second time I concluded that it is brilliant and you could play it 100 times and never suffer from the back-nine ennui Cary describes.

Modern or old doesn't matter.  It's the penal style that makes me FEEL like a high handicapper.

[John Kavanaugh]

The thing I miss about being a high handicapper are the early tee times on Sunday during tournaments and worrying about getting a stiffy when called to the black board.  This having to wait to tee off until three o'clock on a Sunday afternoon with nothing to play with is almost enough to make me give up tournament golf.

[Kalen Braley]

I think a "high" handicapper needs to be defined.  And JK, no i"m not talking about a golfer who likes to toke on the cannibas.

I currently play to a 13.8 and don't consider myself as a high handicapper.  But perhaps I'm wrong on this one as it relates to the context of this conversation.  I'm usually good for 1 birdie per 18 holes and a handful of pars.  Its the triple bogesy and occasional quad that are holding me back at the moment.

All that being said, if I'm a high handicapper the biggest thing I detest is unreasonable carries on the course.  And by this I mean anything more than 180-200 yards.  In addition its always tough when you have that long par 4 with a pond or creek right in front of the green.  Bunkers aren't as bad, as at least a chance at par is still in the realm of doable.

I don't mind wildy undulatings green, I love them in fact.  But that could likely be due to the fact that the putter is my best weapon in the bag.

[Garland Bayley]

I have a simple definition. High 20+, mid 10-20, low under 10.

[Mike_Cirba]

The thing I miss about being a high handicapper are the early tee times on Sunday during tournaments and worrying about getting a stiffy when called to the black board.  This having to wait to tee off until three o'clock on a Sunday afternoon with nothing to play with is almost enough to make me give up tournament golf.

Anything that make me laugh out loud at this age bears repeating.

[Rick Shefchik]

I really don't understand Player's comment. Jack Nicklaus was routinely breaking par at age 12, and qualified for his first U.S. Amateur at age 14. What the hell would he know -- or remember-- about being a high handicapper?

[George Pazin]

George, I have to disagree with your statement about modern designers, as I recently played C&C's brand-new Saguaro, and thought it would be great for golfers of any level.  And Tom Doak is quoted  in one of his interviews on this site as wanting people to think of his courses as "fun" above all.

C&C and Tom aren't modern designers.

 

You're correct, I'm describing more the older classic style versus the modern target style (sorry again about painting with broad brushes, I know there are exceptions to each).

Kalen -

Garland's definition is about what I generally think.

[Ken Moum]

Garland's definition is about what I generally think.

Based on that, I can't say that I have ever been a high handicapper. I'm currently a 15 at age 59, and that's about as high as I ever was.

From my teens to late 30s I was in the 9 to 12 range, and then had a run from age 40 to 57 where I was a 5 to 10.

But lately I've played with a bunch of guys who are nearly all 20+.

It's been interesting to watch them negotiate, or not negotiate, the course.

About half of them hit the ball better than I do, and then throw away strokes around the green like crazy.

Sat. morning, on four separate occasions someone with a realtively simple pitch from 10 yards off the green dumped it in a bunker.

The way they "interface with the architecture" is SO different from the way good players do, I cannot imagine how an elitre level player could understand it without lots of study.

One thing that stand out, however. The thick rough we currently have due to a wet summer is death to the 20 handicapper. The problem is that when he hits a drive into it, he's faced with a really long shot, and cannot bring himself to hit a short iron.

So he pulls out a wood or long iron and hits it 50 yards.

And greenside bunkers are almost an automatic dropped shot, sometimes 2 or 3.

K

[Tom Huckaby]

No one is great at this game straight from the moment he picks up a club; or let's just say that if he is, he's rather crazily phenomenal.

So damn near everyone is a "high handicapper" at some point - for the fortunate who figure out this game a little, it's at the beginning of a learning curve that takes them to greater proficiency.  

Thus I don't see what's odd about any of this - everyone, even Nicklaus - was not great at the game at one point.

On top of that, I'd say only the very very very good at this game forget this type of play completely.  I'd say even if you are a 2-3 handicap, you typically are so because you still hit enough bad shots to keep you from being a scratch... and those bad shots are a very clear reminder of what one once was.

That's how it is for me, anyway.  I can't believe I'd be unique in this.

In any case to answer the question.... I couldn't have been better than a bogey golfer (ie 20 handicap) for at least 5-6 years upon starting to play this game a lot.  I remember very vividly being unable to hit anything but a big banana slice... and thus my interface with the architecture was to do the best I could to avoid trouble on the right.  I remember very well discussing Pebble Beach as I prepared to play it the first time with my Dad... as we looked at the course map, it seemed all the trouble (besides 18) was on the right, so we figured this was going to be a very tough course for me!  And it was....

I also very vividly recall not being able to carry the ball more than 150 yards or so - that made things interesting on longer courses with water, etc.

None of this has left me now... And heck on bad days it still returns very clearly!

[RJ_Daley]

I don't care if a golf course archie/designer is a low handi or high or ever has been high.  I care about how much effort they make to play with and observe all levels of players.

Sure, JWN plays or has played as many pro-ams during tournament weeks as anyone, and more than his share of corporate outtings.  But, the question for me becomes; is he really interested and observing the playing characteristics of the higher handicappers, or disinterested and just focused on what he has to do as an obligation?  

Without question, many of us on GCA.com have formed friendships with archies around the country who participate here, AND PLAY WITH US.  This says much about their interest and ability to observe and participate in the game from all levels.  Some archies are so busy with their business, they don't really take time to know their customers, IMHO.  

[George Pazin]

Huck, one of my buddies started playing 1 month before me, and while he may have technically been a high handicapper, he was shooting in the 80s within a couple months, not playing all that frequently. I'd guess Jack wasn't much different.

-----

Everyone -

Let's set aside beginners, and compare golfers who generally shoot around 100 to those who shoot 85 or better.

Where do you think most strokes are lost for the 100 guy (call him George if you'd like )?

Where do you think most enjoyment is lost? Found?

[Kalen Braley]

Huck, one of my buddies started playing 1 month before me, and while he may have technically been a high handicapper, he was shooting in the 80s within a couple months, not playing all that frequently. I'd guess Jack wasn't much different.

-----

Everyone -

Let's set aside beginners, and compare golfers who generally shoot around 100 to those who shoot 85 or better.

Where do you think most strokes are lost for the 100 guy (call him George if you'd like )?

Where do you think most enjoyment is lost? Found?

George,

I played with two friends this weekend and neither one broke 100.  I can't say I noticed a general pattern to where they lost strokes.  They were just generally inconsitent with every shot.  They would par one hole and take a triple bogey on thier next 3-4.

Tee shots, iron shots, chips, and putts all just very erratic.  I don't really think they thought about "interfacing" with the architecture.  Most of the time they were just trying to keep it in play and out of trouble.  That being said it was interesting to observe as they didnt make any club adjustments for the wind which was about a 1-1.5 club wind all day long.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Tee shots, iron shots, chips, and putts all just very erratic.  I don't really think they thought about "interfacing" with the architecture.  Most of the time they were just trying to keep it in play and out of trouble.  That being said it was interesting to observe as they didnt make any club adjustments for the wind which was about a 1-1.5 club wind all day long.

When shooting erratic, I still interface with the architecture. I pick the shot I want to hit, I step up to the ball believing I can hit it there, and then I swing and it goes straight left (or right).

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