Mystic Rock - How representative of Pete Dye is it?

[George Pazin]

The only other Pete Dye course I've seen in person is The Ocean Course, and to compare the two would border on insulting, to me at least.

How does Mystic Rock fit into the Pete Dye hierarchy?

How does it compare to Pete Dye Golf Club, for instance, a course I'd assume has similar topography, being that both are in the PA/WV/OH tri-state area?

MR just doesn't do much for me. The supposed marching orders from Mr. Hardy were to create the toughest course in western PA. For someone like me, it may well be, but for the big boys, Oakmont seems in a completely different league (and that's just going by difficulty, ignoring all the other aspects).

In case someone says I played the wrong tees, I played a mix of the golds and whites for 11 holes (we were rained- and lightninged-out), which were mostly only a bit behind the forward-most red tees in the case of the golds, and right in front of the blues, in the case of the whites. Both seemed like mere afterthoughts, thrown in amongst the reds and blues.

The only real word I can think of to describe my feelings toward the course is cold. I'll probably head back down, since I have a couple rainchecks for 9 holes, to see what I'm missing, but I have to admit, MR doesn't leave me yearning to play any other Dye course, besides TOC, The Golf Club, and maybe Casa de Campo (though I'll likely never get there).

Anyone else can to share?

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Mystic Rock is not representative of the best of Pete Dye.

End of story.

The Ocean Course at Kiawah likely was the crowning achievement for Dye -- that doesn't mean to say it was his best course from the ones I have played in his portfolio.

Mystic Rock is a hard course in spots but it lacks the character you find in so many of the early works od Pete Dye.

I'm beginning to wonder if Pete really has had his heart and soul in the business towards the latter part of his life.

In sum -- if one only plays Mystic Rock then you have not come remotely close to understanding the design gift Pete Dye possesses.

[Jay Flemma]

Matt...with great respect, your not right on that.

I just got done with my Pete Dye interview for GM and he said its some of his most consistent work...alternate shot patterns, excellent sloping greens, length to challenge the pros, wide fairways, yet tight approaches and challenging chips and pitches.

Pete himself said that if someone couldn't see sawgrass or harbour town, Nemacolin was a good "litmus test."

I'll post the interview after I get clearance from my superiors, but I see many similarities in stragtegy to The Ocean Course and to PGA west and sawgrass...its markedly different from TRW (Fowlers) and from Harbour town and he told me it shows how his design strategies have changed over time.  

Play it again and see what you think of holes like 1,2,5, 14 and 15...

Alice was wonderful to talk to too...she was hysterical!

[George Pazin]

Thanks for the opinions, guys - now I'm more confused than ever!

I think next time I am going to have to try to block out better how much Pete is beating the crap out of me while I'm playing.

On a side note, my friends and I received 3 9- hole rain checks, and since they're from NYC and will likely not return, at least anytime soon, they gave me all 3. If anyone is interested in joining me for a half price round later this summer/fall, let me know.

[Jay Flemma]

I'll play golf with you for full price and you can give the rain check to someone else!
Don't be confused...Matt is a great writer and rater and is usually spot on...but in a choice between Pete on Pete and Matt on Pete, Pete on pete has to win out.   He's the one, as Mr. Pink said in Reservoir Dogs, "who knows what I did or didn't do."

"Hey!  Why am I Mr. Pink?"

BTW->  I'll be at Nemacolin covering the Potomac Cup matches there from 8/23 to 8/26.  Lets play then, George.

[George Pazin]

BTW->  I'll be at Nemacolin covering the Potomac Cup matches there from 8/23 to 8/26.  Lets play then, George.

Cool, see you then! I'll even try to practice a little in the meantime.

[Andy Troeger]

Jay,
No clue on Mystic Rock, never been there. However, Mr. Dye also has said that Kampen at Purdue was one of his most underrated courses. While I give him credit for designing the course for $1, its probably my least favorite of his courses that I've played. Not that I think he's wrong on Mystic Rock seeing as he designed it, I'm just not willing to believe him 100% either from my chair based on my own experience  

[Jay Flemma]

You are spot on!  He spoke a great deal about how much he LOVES purdue.  He gave me lots of detail.  He said it was a fun design at a great price.  "They do it right there."

In fact he said Indiana is one of the greatest states for solid inexpensive golf.

[JohnV]

We held the West Penn Open at Mystic Rock this week.  The winning score after 36 holes was 139.  We set it up about 6900 yards, it can play up to about 7500 I believe.

I've probably altered my opinion on MR more than any other course I've ever seen.  After this week, I like it more than I did when I got there.

As for typical Pete Dye, it has the usual gambling par 5, tough par 3, brutal par 4 finish he loves so much.  One thing it doesn't have is a shortish par 4 hole where you have to hit the correct side of the fairway to see the green like #12 at TPC, some at PGA West or #12 at Pete Dye.  There is little or no blindness there.  The bunkers are huge and many have very flat bottoms with high steep grass faces.

One thing I like about the course is that most of the holes are birdie or triple bogey opportunities.  I was taking cards for most of the field over the two days and I don't think I've seen so many 8s from a good field.  The average score was 78.  There were 13 eagles, but 57 scores over double bogey.

There is one really strange par 5 (11) that is a much better hole from the back tees than from the forward ones.  He has two holes with two greens on them due to the efforts to make it tougher for the PGA Tour.

The 12th is one of the toughest par 3s I've seen anywhere.  There were 16 doubles and 16 others this week.

[Andy Troeger]

You are spot on!  He spoke a great deal about how much he LOVES purdue.  He gave me lots of detail.  He said it was a fun design at a great price.  "They do it right there."

In fact he said Indiana is one of the greatest states for solid inexpensive golf.

The last part is correct certainly. And the price at Purdue certainly is reasonable, I just think the course is too dang hard, even compared to other course he has done. The Fort is much better, and I'd take Mystic Hills in Culver as well.

[Jay Flemma]

We held the West Penn Open at Mystic Rock this week.  The winning score after 36 holes was 139.  We set it up about 6900 yards, it can play up to about 7500 I believe.

I've probably altered my opinion on MR more than any other course I've ever seen.  After this week, I like it more than I did when I got there.

As for typical Pete Dye, it has the usual gambling par 5, tough par 3, brutal par 4 finish he loves so much.  One thing it doesn't have is a shortish par 4 hole where you have to hit the correct side of the fairway to see the green like #12 at TPC, some at PGA West or #12 at Pete Dye.  There is little or no blindness there.  The bunkers are huge and many have very flat bottoms with high steep grass faces.

One thing I like about the course is that most of the holes are birdie or triple bogey opportunities.  I was taking cards for most of the field over the two days and I don't think I've seen so many 8s from a good field.  The average score was 78.  There were 13 eagles, but 57 scores over double bogey.

There is one really strange par 5 (11) that is a much better hole from the back tees than from the forward ones.  He has two holes with two greens on them due to the efforts to make it tougher for the PGA Tour.

The 12th is one of the toughest par 3s I've seen anywhere.  There were 16 doubles and 16 others this week.

John, everything you've said is right as well...12 is murder...almost too tough as, unlike 12 at Bulle Rock, long is not safe.  Nice comparison on no short par-4 a la 12 at Sawgrass.

I do like 11.  On the media day for the Potomac Cup, I played with some of the players and became a fave personality of theirs by "parring the hole with three five-woods."

John, and everyone else, admission to the Potomac Cup as a spectator is free I THINK...and its the best amateurs in Maryland vs. the best in VA after two brutal qualifiers.  These guys are really great.  Vance welch, a famous regional amateur won his Sunday singles match 7 & 6 after going SEVEN UNDER over the first twelve holes, playing the back tees two weeks before the 84 Lumber came.  They call him "The Freak" he's so good.

I'll post a thread about the tournament so you all can read about it - its a great team event.

I liked the Fort but didnt love it - remember the fort was a redesign on a tough piece of property.  Its a smallish plot, but he did some sweet things there.

Pete was just a joy to interview.  Ask him a question and he goes and goes.  You'll get a kick out of some of his answers...

BTW-> What do you call people from Indiana?  Indianans?

[Andy Troeger]

BTW-> What do you call people from Indiana?  Indianans?

Hoosiers...

[Jay Flemma]

BTW-> What do you call people from Indiana?  Indianans?

Hoosiers...

Oh, of course...can you tell its been a crazy day here?!

[Andy Troeger]

Been there done that

[Tom Zeni]

George, no need to be confused. Your use of the word "cold" is precisely the correct word for the course. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice course, if it was in Myrtle Beach. Why Myrtle? Because it reminds me of a resort course that's tricked up for tournament play.

Then again, when Jon Daly and Michelle Wie are adding ideas like "hey, let's put in a waterfall" what can we expect from this layout?

Personally, I think the original Nemacolin Woodland's course has more character!

[Jay Flemma]

I agree...the waterfalls and broze statues of freakin Vijay and need to GO!

[JohnV]

Jay,

Don't get me wrong, I like 11 from the lower back tees where the big boys can't get to the blind trouble.  From the tees on top of the hill, golfers hit it over the hill and there is blind water on the right and blind fescue on the left.  I'd hate to have to officiate on that hole from those tees.

[Mike_Cirba]

George,

I've played a lot of Pete Dye and I'd say that Mystic Rock is my least favorite of his courses.  

I don't think the land was very suitable, nor was the rocky soil.   Dye seems to have put more gimmicks into it than any other of his courses I'm familiar with to try and stuff a little character and whimsy into the place.

I don't think it's more than a 5 on the Doak Scale and I certainly wouldn't travel across the state to play it again.

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

All designers are pressed to say "nice things" about each and every design they create. Frankly, I don't expect architects to say anything but glowing things about the work they create. It's sort of like them being fathers to their children (they courses they create).

Having an independent assessment is the only way to go. I've played a wide assortment of Pete's courses through the years and Mystic Rock, while being hard and long, is more about brutality than character.

Mike C hit the nail on the head -- one would not travel across Pennsy or beyond 100 miles to check it out. I agree w Mike --give it a 5 on the Doak scale.

When you analyze such gems as Harbour Town, The Oeacn Course / Kiawah, The Golf Club, Teeth of the Dog, TPC / Sawgrass, The Honors Club, etc, etc, -- Mystic Rock is far from being in such an august grouping.

[George Pazin]

Well, if we set aside the big name triumphs, how does MR compare to efforts like Pete Dye GC and Bulle Rock?

What distinguishes MR from something like The Honors?

(Also, apologies for overlooking Sawgrass before - that's on my wish list, too.)

[Jim Franklin]

George -

IMHO, there is no comparison between the Pete Dye GC and Mystic Rock. PDGC is a blast to play and seeing that it is relatively close to Pittsburgh, you need to play it. It is my favorite Pete Dye course to date and I have played my fair share. There was not a hole there I did not like (even #17 for those counting at home). Trust me in that you will not be disappointed.

[Matt_Ward]

George --

I'll respond later when time permits -- agree 10000000% w Jim on Pete Dye GC. Miles ahead of Mystic Rock.

I also see Bulle Rock as better than Mystic Rock but would not place it among Pete's finest efforts.

[George Pazin]

Thanks again guys for the input.

Have a great weekend everyone.

[Jay Flemma]

Jay:

All designers are pressed to say "nice things" about each and every design they create. Frankly, I don't expect architects to say anything but glowing things about the work they create. It's sort of like them being fathers to their children (they courses they create).

Having an independent assessment is the only way to go. I've played a wide assortment of Pete's courses through the years and Mystic Rock, while being hard and long, is more about brutality than character.

Mike C hit the nail on the head -- one would not travel across Pennsy or beyond 100 miles to check it out. I agree w Mike --give it a 5 on the Doak scale.

When you analyze such gems as Harbour Town, The Oeacn Course / Kiawah, The Golf Club, Teeth of the Dog, TPC / Sawgrass, The Honors Club, etc, etc, -- Mystic Rock is far from being in such an august grouping.

Yes, but it's better than The Fort and Fowlers.  I would drive across the state to play it...I'd just shake my head at the statues and the waterfalls.

Pete Dye is as candid as its gets.  He doesn't say noce things just to say nice things.  "I'm half 162" he said, and then he went on to really provide some hair-raising critiques.  I'll also say I like Bulle Rock more than Mystic rock, but not by that much.

Again, we're splitting hairs between the truly great and really, really really good. I agree the bells whistles and buzzers are tacky, but what's inthe earth is solid.

I have never played PDGC.

[Matt_Ward]

Keep in mind this -- Pete's glory years came a good ways back -- I opined that The Ocean Course is likely the last of the heavyweight layouts he designed. Ditto Pete Dye GC in Bridgeport, WV.

That's not to say a few of the more recent ones aren't good -- Bulle Rock is a fine layout but it's far from the high altitude layouts of the more distant past.