[Buck Wolter]

Crystal Mountain resort is a good base for playing Arcadia -- they have some reasonably priced hotel rooms and 36 holes 18 of which are pretty good. About a half hour drive from Arcadia. They also rent houses for larger groups.

Jim - The replay rate at Arcadia makes for a pretty good deal.

Personally give me 5 rounds at Kingsley 5 at Arcadia or anything in between and I'd be a happy man. Other than location and timing the comparisons don't seem that apt.

Buck

[John Kirk]

I just played Arcadia Bluffs this morning for the first time.  Keep in mind I'm rarely impressed the first time I play a course.  We took carts, but it appeared to me that the steep terrain, coupled with steep uphill walks to elevated tee boxes, rendered Arcadia Bluffs unwalkable, except for the most avid and strong walkers.

I don't get it.  You have a beautiful piece of property with world class views, and you build something unwalkable.  Why is this acceptable?  Golf is a walking game for exercise.

Kingsley is a challenging walk, but within reason.  Kingsley 9, and Arcadia once to break the monotony.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I don't get it.  You have a beautiful piece of property with world class views, and you build something unwalkable.  Why is this acceptable?  Golf is a walking game for exercise.
Kingsley is a challenging walk, but within reason.  Kingsley 9, and Arcadia once to break the monotony.

John,
  That's too bad that you let very solid architecture be unseen because of your disappointend of being a difficult course to walk. Who really cares is a course is a difficult walk? Does it really make Kinsley THAT much better in your eyes because you don't have to have 4 tires on the ground?

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Buck Wolter]

John-
I never found Arcadia to be that tough of a walk, a couple medium length green to tee walks but the elevation changes are typically pretty gradual, 10 green to 11 tee is tough  and if you don't know where you're going you can waste alot of energy. Overall I'd say Arcadia and Kingsley are very comparable in walking with Arcadia perhaps a bit easier. You probably walk further at Arcadia but much less up and down than at Kingsley.

Buck

[cary lichtenstein]

I'd give the edge to Arcadia, 6 to 4

[Will E]

Kingsley 8, Arcadia 2.

[John Kirk]

Of course this is all estimated from a cart, but it seemed there were quite a few green to tee walks which were either steeply uphill or long.  The front nine was pretty logical, but the back nine looked tough to me.

Off the top of my head, the following green to tee walks seemed tough:

7-8
9-10
10-11
11-12
15-16
17-18

For me, a good walking course is good architecture.  A great course design limits green to tee walks, and even makes walks to all sets of tees simple.

Buck, I admire that you have walked Arcadia.  You would have been the only one out there yesterday.  I walk 80-90% of my rounds, but I have an osteoarthritic knee which gets sore if I walk too many hills.  Kingsley has a few tough stretches: down and up on #1, back through the same valley on #9, and up to the #17 green are examples.  I'm not sure I could walk Kingsley 3-4 times a week without experiencing chronic soreness,  Most players take carts there, but I regard the course as walkable, and sensibly arranged to minimize walks between holes.  It looked to me Arcadia was much tougher than that.

The other architecture, playing the course, was not lost on me.  I enjoyed playing Arcadia Bluffs.  I felt the course had a nice variety of holes.  Our foursome had a problem when we decided to play the back tees, listed at 6700 yards on the card, but actually set up at 6900.  Only one of our players was strong enough to play from back there, without facing shots too difficult to reasonably execute.  There were several long carries over bunkers that required high, soft shots.  It looked like a course much better suited to the low handicapper.

The course featured some the most penalizing bunkers I've ever seen.  At least 4 times during the round, the players faced bunker shots where a sideways pitchout was the only play (though other options were attempted).  Also, the course featured grass faced bunkers, blowout style bunkers, and revetted sod bunkers.  The lack of consistency was noticeable, but not a big negative for me.

More disconcerting for me was the green shaping.  Green generally collected shots into several bowls within each green complex.  As a result, there were many 5-20 foot putts with very simple beaks, but putts from other green sections were too difficult.  In other words,  I felt the greens did not yield really fun or compelling long putts.

Finally, Arcadia was routed through narrow valleys in places, and collected good shots into the center, while stray shots resulted in recoveries too steep and difficult for my liking.  I wish it weren't so severe, and I wish you could have seen more of the course while playing.

Wow!  There you go....

[George Pazin]

I don't get it.  You have a beautiful piece of property with world class views, and you build something unwalkable.  Why is this acceptable?  Golf is a walking game for exercise.
Kingsley is a challenging walk, but within reason.  Kingsley 9, and Arcadia once to break the monotony.

John,
  That's too bad that you let very solid architecture be unseen because of your disappointend of being a difficult course to walk. Who really cares is a course is a difficult walk? Does it really make Kinsley THAT much better in your eyes because you don't have to have 4 tires on the ground?

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Anthony

I haven't seen either course, but the walking aspect would most certainly be a deal breaker for me.  Carts are fine, but it isn't proper golf.  Too many long/difficult walks spoil the rhythm of the game.  I can understand one, maybe two tough walks if there is a great reward to be had, but anymore than this really strikes me as a design weakness.  That isn't to say that I necessarily blame the achie because the terrain could be very harsh, but then I begin to wonder if the terrain isn't suitable for golf or if a different routing shouldhave been used with possibly less wow factor.  

Ciao

I'm with Sean on this one. To me, making the course a really difficult walk IS poor architecture, it pretty much doesn't matter how good the holes are.

Although I will say, my standards for walkability are probably a lot higher than most - I didn't think Paa Ko Ridge or Black Mesa were too tough to walk, not even close. For me, walkability is almost strictly a function of green to tee walks - I haven't seen a golf hole yet that wasn't walkable (haven't seen Huck's fav, The Ranch, yet, either, though).

Thanks for the additional thoughts, JK (the sensible JK ).

[John Kirk]

Well, I just got done walking the back nine at Kingsley.  It's a pretty tough walk.  Huffing and puffing were heard.

Still think it must be an easier walk than Arcadia Bluffs.

[RSLivingston_III]

John,
Stop being a girly man.
I used to walk 36 a day at Kingsley.
Even with my gimpy foot I have walk & carried 18 this year.
I don't think Mike could have made the green to tee walks much closer, it would be hard to improve on the routing.
With interest usually comes elevation change.
If you wnat an easy walk there is always the ex-cow pasture muni....

[Brett Hochstein]

Kingsley is really not too bad a walk, and I really was surprised and disappointed to see the how high the cart usage rate was when I was there.  


Tom S, if you haven't yet gone, here are a few features (of many) at Kingsley to look for:

The ground--DL keeps it hard as anyone, and I encourage playing runners to and around the greens even if it is not a shot you are accustomed to.  You'll find it more enjoyable planning and executing shots than a fly-and-one-bounce sort of approach.  

If playing a match and your opponent hits left or right of the 145 yard 2nd green, do not feel like a weenie in hitting a 90 yard layup wedge to the bit of fairway.  You will win the hole.  That is if you do not go too far and into the falloff.

While on the 3rd tee, note the hole location on the fourth green to your right.  If front, hit a high shot over the ridge.  If back, hit a runner--it will feed.

If you look hard enough on the seventh tee, you can see at least a little bit of every hole on the front nine.

A high shot into the ninth green from the south tees really is the only option.

Note the 10th and 11th greens--a little toned down from the dramatics, eh?  Perhaps Mike's greatest attribute is that he does not force the issue.  He takes what is given, and in a diverse site such as this, it provides a nice dose of variety as well as a bit of a breather.

The 13th green is good ole fashion fun, regardless of what some may say.  And it was found that way--once again, no forcing the issue.  If by some chance the hole is in the way, way back lobe, a play from the right center bowl is really the only chance of then getting the ball close.

16 is a redan-esque hole in which I actually found a lot of success in hitting a cut into the slope right of the green, especially with the hole up front.

Be sure there is bugspray in the cart.  Blackflies are killer, and they should be around for a couple more weeks.

Trees were recently cleared between the 10th and 18th fairway as well as behind the 14th and 16th green.  Bunkers were added to 10, 14, and 18.

Also, if not playing a match, throw away the scorecard and just play.  It really is a great opportunity to try all sorts of shots, as the variety is innumerable.  The thrill in pulling off something unorthodox is greater than any meaningless number on paper.


I've said too much. Enjoy

[ed_getka]

Brett,
  You can never say too much about Kingsley. It is one of my favorite courses.

[Mark Arata]

Thanks to some really great people on this site, I was fortunate enough to play Kingsley, Arcadia, Crystal Downs, Lost Dunes, and the Dunes club this week.

I am completely in love with Kingsley, except for the 9th hole, which I have dubbed the shortest par 5 in America. In six tries at it, I couldnt hold a ball on the green with a center pin placement and a short iron. (its a par 3, for those that dont know the course)

Other than that, it is a great, great golf course. So much fun to play and it gets better and better the more you play it and see how to get to the different parts of the green. The front 9 played a few shots harder for me, because I cant figure out 7 and 9. Everyone I spoke to about the course said the front nine was great, and it was, but to me the the back nine is just about perfect. I love the 12-16 stretch of holes, 13 is such a great green complex, there are so many ways to play the hole. 14 and 15 are par 5, par 4 on the card, but they both play about 4.5. 14 can be reached in 2 if you catch the speed slot on the right, 15 is a bear to get to in two into the wind, 16 is a redan par 3 that is such a fun hole to play, hitting the ball out to the right and watching it funnel to the hole.

Arcadia is a beautiful place, but in my opinion, it is a bit over-rated, if you take away the water and view, some of the holes are not that strong, and the routing is just wierd. There is no reason for some of the cross country hikes they make you take from hole to hole, especially when they had a blank canvas to work with. I believe that Whistling Straits was build in the same manner, and is a very walkable course, Arcadia is not. It does have some good holes, I especially liked the short 4th hole, the 8th hole, (except for the walk from 7 to and the 12th hole, along the water, into the wind. The staff at Arcadia was very nice, and the clubhouse resturant was excellent.

I would go 8-2 kingsley on a 5 day trip, one day at Arcadia for the views, the lower scores and the sunset dinner.

I will try to post some more about the other courses this week. I will say that Crystal Downs might be the best course I have ever played to completion (yes, I am still bitter about Cypress ) and that Dunes club is way too cool for words.

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
Wow, very cool trip. I've also played all the courses you mentioned over the last few years and look forward to hearing your comments.

I actually shot the same thing (78) both of my rounds at Kingsley (adjusted both times for not finishing my nemesis--#2), and Arcadia Bluffs (35-43). If anything though, I thought AB was the harder of the two.

[Mark Arata]

My best round of the trip was an 85 at Arcadia, playing in a pretty stiff wind. I managed an 88 yesterday at Kingsley, with a pretty strong back 9 to make up for the blow up holes at 7 and 9 on the front.

Played the last 4 holes at the Dunes today with Ralph Livingston's hickory clubs and sadly, scored better with them than with my own

I didnt play Arcadia from the tips, I played from the black tees (6700 or so) and the wind was helping on the par 5s. After playing Kingsley in the morning, Arcadia seemed a lot easier. After playing Crystal Downs Sat morning, Kingsley seemed alot easier. Either way, I stink, so it was all about having fun, which was easily accomplished.

[Andy Troeger]

Only two courses on your list that I played the back tees were Lost Dunes and Crystal Downs. CD isn't about the length anyway, and I had 12 putts through 4 holes despite hitting it pretty tight on #3 if that tells you anything.

All of those courses are fun, and a pretty good variety of holes between them.

There's a lot of good holes at Kingsley, but I thought the downhill 12th was probably the prettiest. I agree that the back nine holds its own very well.

[Brian Cenci]

Thanks to some really great people on this site, I was fortunate enough to play Kingsley, Arcadia, Crystal Downs, Lost Dunes, and the Dunes club this week.

I am completely in love with Kingsley, except for the 9th hole, which I have dubbed the shortest par 5 in America. In six tries at it, I couldnt hold a ball on the green with a center pin placement and a short iron. (its a par 3, for those that dont know the course)

Other than that, it is a great, great golf course. So much fun to play and it gets better and better the more you play it and see how to get to the different parts of the green. The front 9 played a few shots harder for me, because I cant figure out 7 and 9. Everyone I spoke to about the course said the front nine was great, and it was, but to me the the back nine is just about perfect. I love the 12-16 stretch of holes, 13 is such a great green complex, there are so many ways to play the hole. 14 and 15 are par 5, par 4 on the card, but they both play about 4.5. 14 can be reached in 2 if you catch the speed slot on the right, 15 is a bear to get to in two into the wind, 16 is a redan par 3 that is such a fun hole to play, hitting the ball out to the right and watching it funnel to the hole.

Arcadia is a beautiful place, but in my opinion, it is a bit over-rated, if you take away the water and view, some of the holes are not that strong, and the routing is just wierd. There is no reason for some of the cross country hikes they make you take from hole to hole, especially when they had a blank canvas to work with. I believe that Whistling Straits was build in the same manner, and is a very walkable course, Arcadia is not. It does have some good holes, I especially liked the short 4th hole, the 8th hole, (except for the walk from 7 to and the 12th hole, along the water, into the wind. The staff at Arcadia was very nice, and the clubhouse resturant was excellent.

I would go 8-2 kingsley on a 5 day trip, one day at Arcadia for the views, the lower scores and the sunset dinner.

I will try to post some more about the other courses this week. I will say that Crystal Downs might be the best course I have ever played to completion (yes, I am still bitter about Cypress ) and that Dunes club is way too cool for words.

Mark,
     I'm playing the Dunes Club tomorrow.  Which did you like better Lost Dunes or Dunes Club?

-Brian

[Mark Arata]

Lost Dunes is a great golf course and a lot of fun to play, but Dunes club is one of those special places that you will remember forever. I got the same chills that I got when at the sheep ranch, but in a much more finished setting.

There are like 6 or 7 different tees on each hole, from different angles, especially on the par 3's. The par 5's were extremely strong.

I think you will love it. Hit some shots from the different tee boxes if you can, especially 2 and 8.

[MBL]

John-
I never found Arcadia to be that tough of a walk, a couple medium length green to tee walks but the elevation changes are typically pretty gradual, 10 green to 11 tee is tough  and if you don't know where you're going you can waste alot of energy. Overall I'd say Arcadia and Kingsley are very comparable in walking with Arcadia perhaps a bit easier. You probably walk further at Arcadia but much less up and down than at Kingsley.

Buck

I did 'waste energy' by getting lost on a few of those tee-green walks and was disappointed that there wasn't any 'walkway' mown from tee to fairway on many of the holes.  Then again, I'm often lost and I always prefer to walk!

[Andy Troeger]

Brian,
The Dunes Club is probably the better "experience" and setting. Lost Dunes is IMO the better golf course. Will let you play before I try to explain why.

[Mark Arata]

explain please

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
If you insist

Lost Dunes is pretty solid. The greens in spots may be a bit wilder and crazier than I care for, but they're fun and manageable generally. I liked the layout, some neat holes and great use of the outsides of the property to get some elevated tee shots. Every hole is memorable generally even though I only played it once. The back nine was especially good to me.

I do like the Dunes Club. The experience is fantastic. The par threes are great. I have some quibbles otherwise though.

First, both par fives are layup holes with very little other option. The fairway runs out on both holes leaving either a ridiculously hard 250+ yard shot to greens with lots of trouble, or layups. On #8, the layup is around the huge tree that I think is a bit silly seeing as it blocks basically everything including most of the fairway. There's a tiny little spot on the right side of the fairway that gives a clear shot.

#5 is gorgeous, but the forced carry there is a bit ridiculous for the high handicapper. Short of hitting a long straight drive, the only option is to hit down to the end of the fairway before crossing the pond. Then its still a 120 yard shot all carry with no way around if you can't pull it off. I kind of like the hole, but I don't consider it a great design, especially seeing as you have to play it twice.

#4 I think the trees on the left overhang too far, kind of similar to #8.

#1 is a great tough opener, and #9 is a great closer. It truly is a wonderful experience in a setting like nothing else I've personally played. The holes are very cool, I just don't think a couple of them work very well when it comes down to it. Hence the edge to Lost Dunes.

Fire away!

[Daryl David]

Having walked 36 holes in a day at both Kingsley and Arcadia Bluffs, Kingsley is definitely the better routed course from a walking perspective.  

A pretty sad statement about American golf was made earlier in this thread to the effect that does golf course architecture really suffer it the architect's design requires a golf cart.

Both Tom Doak and Bill Coore are on record that the most complex and time consuming challenge they face in their designs is the routing...connecting the holes in a manner that promotes walking and the magical rhythm of golf.

I just returned from a 12 day trip from Scotland where we played 36 holes a day at Dornoch, Cruden Bay (one of my top 10 favorite courses!), St Andrews, Kingsbarn (our least favorite course on this trip but still a very strong yet contrived layoaut), North Berwick and Prestwick (both truly original!), Turnberry and Troon.  Other than the walks from 9 to 10 at Cruden Bay and a few unnecessary distances on the back nine at Kingsbarn, the vast majority of the greens were merely yards away from the prior greens.

American architects who fail to grasp this timeless and compelling element of the game will continue to build scenic yet vapid courtball courses like the Alotian Club, Black Rock in Idaho (like the Alotian Club, built to take advantage of pretty lake views but not about the golf), the Prince course in Hawaii, the Madison Club in La Quinta, etc., none of which are better than a 5 on the Doak scale in my opinion.

There is something very special about laying your golf bag near the the 7th green at the terrific We Ko Pa Saguaro course and then walking only a few paces off the back of the green to the back teeing area of the par 5 8th hole.  

My University of California Berkeley and San Francisco Golf Club caddie experiences tell me golf has a lot of room to include the diversity of opinons and players but any discussion of truly great golf courses (anything higher than a 7 on the Doak scale) should automatically preclude any cartball venues.

I too want to send kudos on this post.  Bill you have it exactly right especially the mention of magical rhythm of golf.  It is really a downer when the rhythm is interrupted by some stupid walk backwards or a long cart ride so the next tee can set up a view of some kind.

I would only argue you one point and that is Kingsbarns.  I felt exactly like you when I first played it.  But now that I have visited 5 or 6 times, it has grown on me.  I know a few folks that have had similar experiences.  If you make a few more trips over the pond, play it a few more times.  It is special.

[Mark Arata]

Well, with my lack of game, just about every par 5 is a layup hole, so that didnt bother me as much, although I can see your point. I sort of liked the tree being where it was on the 2nd par 5, it makes you think out your angle of attack, and will make you move the ball in order to get on the green if you find yourself out of position.

I only had time to go around the course one time, I was really just captured by the whole vibe of the place, it was like you had Pine Valley all to yourself, with the rest of the world just shut out.

This is a little like choosing Sophia Loren or Ann Margeret in their prime....either way, you cant lose

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
Can't fault you there. Hopefully I made it clear that I do like the place, but if I had to choose between the two I'd go Lost Dunes probably 7-3 out of ten.

Crystal Downs and Kingsley have to go ahead of both of them. I'd probably put Arcadia between Lost Dunes and Dunes Club. Not a bad one in the bunch though.

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